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From the Radio Free Michigan archives

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Thanks to a CN reader who transcribed the following.
Aids: Epidemic or Weapon of War? (1/3)

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Feel free to re-distribute to any and all news groups, friends, etc., on
the condition that this accompanying rider remain in tact.  Dave Emory is
an anti-fascist researcher, radio talk show host,  public speaker, and
educator.  You may reach him snail-mail at:  Dave Emory, c/o KFJC Radio
Station, 12345 El Monte Road, Los Altos Hills, CA  94022.  Mr. Emory's
well documented educational material is available on audio tape.  A
catalogue of his tapes and brief synopsis of each tape is available for
$3.00 postpaid with SASE.  For tapes or catalogue,  contact Archives On
Audio, P. O. Box 170023, San Francisco, California  94117-0023, or phone
[phone], or e-mail on Internet at <email [e-mail]>.
(Mr. Emory makes no money off the sale of these tapes.  They are offered
purely for study and education.)  Where to hear Dave Emory - A partial
list of radio stations:
Los Angeles     KPFK 90.7FM     Wednesdays     Midnight to 2:00am
Ann Arbor       WCBN 88.3FM    Fridays             6:00 to 7:00pm
Berkeley           KALX 90.7FM    Fridays             9:00 to 9:30am
SF/Bay Area     KFJC 89.7 FM    Sundays           7:00 to 11:00pm
Santa Cruz        KKUP 91.5FM    Mondays          9:00 to 10:30pm
NJ/NY             WFMU 91.1FM    Tuesdays          6:00 to 7:00pm

The following is a transcript of a lecture given by Mr. Dave Emory in
November, 1991. [Transcriber:  Proper names are spelled phonetically when
unclear.]

                AIDS:  EPIDEMIC OR WEAPON OF WAR?

                                        Part I

        (Announcer:  Again, thank you for coming.  Here is Dave Emory.)

        I am going to be talking about AIDS as a biological warfare
weapon.  One of the tapes we are going to play is a tape of an
epidemiologist at Martin Luther King Hospital in Los Angeles talking
about one of the aspects of AIDS that I think is completely incredible in
terms of the original hypothesis or the accepted hypothesis.
        I am not a physician, nor am I a microbiologist, or an
oncologist, or geneticist, so there is a considerable body of scientific
evidence that backs up my political theories that AIDS is a biological
warfare weapon.  I will talk about that to a certain extent.  But it
would be both pretentious and, frankly, intellectually dishonest for me
to sit up here and hold forth on the scientific theory past a point,
although I am aware of some of it.  Because I am not an expert in these
fields, I cannot critically evaluate the information past a point.  And
it's a safe bet that there is a lot of disinformation in this regard.
        I am going to talk about the medical evidence to a certain extent
and play you a tape of a physician talking about the incredible
epidemiology of AIDS, that is to say the absolutely unbelievable way in
which this disease has spread, if we are to accept the official version.
But again I am going to talk about the political and historical aspects
primarily.
        I don't think one has to be Sherlock Holmes to detect some very
unusual things in the way this disease has developed, and it is those
unusual things I will be focusing on primarily.  After the break, we will
hear a tape of  Dr. Wilbert Jordan, as I said.  And I will make people
familiar with some of the physicians who have come up with ideas similar
to the political theories that I have formed.
        Also, before getting into the main body of the talk, I want to
emphasize that there is a personal involvement with yours truly in the
AIDS situation.  I am sorry to see that a friend of mine from San
Francisco did not come down, because I am going to talk about a
prediction I made in 1980.  I actually have this on the air.  I really
was the first person to go public with this theory.  I also want to
emphasize that a lot of people helped me with the research.  Virtually
all of the scientific information comes from other people, so I was
generously assisted.  But I think in the course of the progress of this
disease and in an analysis of AIDS as a political phenomenon, yours truly
has played a significant role.  And I want to apologize if it seems a
little egotistical when I hypothesize about that, but I will get to that
a little bit later.
        Now, the thing that I want to do in the first part of the talk is
to give a chronology, basically an accounting of the development of
biological warfare in this country over the last fifty years or so.
        The notion that AIDS might be a biological warfare weapon would
seem incredible to the average American citizen.  That is unfortunate,
because the fact of the matter is that experimenting on human beings with
deadly diseases is something that has a very established history in the
United States.  Many people might be familiar with the Tuskeegee study
that was begun in the 1930s.  Some eight hundred Black Americans in
Tuskeegee, Alabama were infected with syphilis.  They were not treated.
This was to study how this deadly disease progressed as it went along.
Most of them were allowed to die.  They received no treatment.
        It should also be noted that one of the top Army chemical and
biological warfare experts during the second World War openly boasted of
having deliberately infected Puerto Ricans with cancer when he was doing
experiments in Puerto Rico in the early 1940s.  In fact, he said that
Puerto Ricans were "the most dirty, disgusting, filthy people on earth
and that the best thing that could happen to this whole island would be
for a tidal wave or another natural disaster to wipe it off the face of
the earth."  And as I say, he admitted to having infected some fourteen
Puerto Ricans with cancer.  They all died and he was very proud of that.
So, this is not something that is alien to our culture as we consider the
progress of the disease, as we consider unusual circumstances, how this
disease suddenly appeared like "magic," no pun intended.  But obviously
this is a subject that is receiving a lot of focus because of Magic
Johnson's becoming infected with HIV.  Magic Johnson, for those of you
not familiar with him, is arguably the best point guard ever to play the
game of basketball.  He has focused a lot of attention on the disease.
        Now, the real story of the development of AIDS begins at the end
of the second World War when the United States incorporated something
called Unit 731.  Unit 731 was the Japanese chemical and biological
warfare research center.  It was located in Manchuria.  Specifically,
this was the most advanced chemical and biological warfare unit on the
face of the earth.  The Japanese experimented on American prisoners of
war, Allied prisoners of war, many of whom later died.  That did not
trouble the people in this country past a point.  Our officials and our
military people were very anxious to get their hands on that information
and on some of the scientists, some of whom continue to practice medicine
in Japan to this day.
        So what we did was incorporate some of the records and some of
the personnel from Unit 731, despite the fact that this organization,
this Unit of the Japanese military had experimented on Allied prisoners
of war, including Americans, with very deadly results.  We took the files
and the personnel from Unit 731 and they were installed in Fort Detrick,
Maryland.  That is or was, I believe it still is, the Army's top chemical
and biological warfare research center.  Remember the name Fort Detrick,
because it is going to come in in a big, big way.
        Now, many of you, no doubt, are familiar with the subject of my
last lecture here at Foothill College.  It is one of the frequent topics
that I talk about on the air, and that is the Gehlen spy organization.
Reinhard Gehlen was the Nazi Chief of Intelligence for the Eastern front
during the second World War.  At the end of World War II, we brought in
Gehlen and basically made him a four star General.  He was brought in and
given the uniform and pay of a four star General.  His entire Eastern
front intelligence organization was incorporated into the Central
Intelligence Agency where it became for all intents and purposes the
CIA's Department of Russian and Eastern European Affairs.  It was the
sole purveyor of intelligence on that part of the world for the CIA.  It
later became the de facto NATO intelligence organization.  After that it
was installed as the Budis Nacree, the West German intelligence service,
or now the German intelligence service, since there is no West/East
Germany anymore, which it remains to this day.
        This was the vehicle for importing thousands of SS and Gestapo
veterans into the U.S. intelligence system, where some of them hold senior
positions to this day.  Many of them are war criminals of the first order.
Many of them had participated in the brutal extermination of the Jews,
gays, and other people that Hitler wanted to get rid of.  Many of them had
also been involved in some of the brutal medical experiments which the
Germans could not get in their concentration camps.  The Germans, too,
were very accustomed to experimenting on living human beings with deadly
results in order to find out the things that they wanted to find out.
        So we take an already on-going tradition of experimenting on
living human beings with deadly results, the same thing that was done in
the Tuskeegee study, the same thing that was done in this top Army
chemical and biological warfare doctor had done in Puerto Rico, combine it
with Unit 731, add the Gehlen organization and the German scientists
brought in under Project Paper Clip, people like Verner Von Brom, who was
a Major in the SS.  They also had a very low regard for human life and
were quite willing to achieve their intellectual goals at the expense of
their fellow human beings.
        When you take these things and combine them, basically you have
the blueprint for a very deadly engine.  And I believe that this engine
got on track at the end of the second World War and it is bearing down
upon us, not unlike those old cliffhangers, where we're all tied on the
tracks and the engine is coming straight for us.
        It should be noted that after the second World War, a tradition
of experimenting on unwitting civilian subjects gathered steam, gathered
momentum in the United States.  In the Bay Area, for example, a barge
spewing a bacteria, a supposedly harmless bacteria, called seratia
marsesans was towed around San Francisco Bay by the Navy for a couple of
days.  This was done in order to see how a microorganism could be spread
using the prevailing winds.  Seratia marsesans was supposedly a harmless
microorganism.  To people with healthy immune systems, it is.  But to
people whose immune systems were compromised, in particular senior
citizens, it can be very deadly.  Seratia infection is a common cause of
death for senior citizens.
        It should be noted that a fellow of a father right down here at
Stanford University sued because his father died of seratia infection
right at that time.  Now I also want to note that the Bay Area to this
day has the highest incidents of seratia infection in the entire world.
There has never been a place where seratia has been found in the
frequency that we have it right here.
        It should also be noted that experiments were conducted in the
New York City subway system to see how a microorganism, supposedly
harmless again, and chemical agents again could be distributed in a
public thoroughfare.  It should also be noted, too, that the United
States and Great Britain jointly conducted chemical and biological
warfare research also on unwitting citizens largely in the third world.
We are going to come back to the U.S. and British connection a little bit
later.
        Also, and this is very, very important, we should take note of
the fact that one of the major foci of U.S. biological warfare research
and chemical warfare research was to develop what is known as
ethno-specific or culturally-specific biological and chemical agents.
That is to say biological and chemical agents which would take advantage
of the genetic differences and cultural and habitual differences of
various groups, specifically to target those groups.  And that is
something which I think looms very large in the background of AIDS
today.
        Now in 1962 the Department of Defense had forty geneticists
working full-time.  It should be noted that genetics research was a major
focus also of biological warfare research in the United States.  Now in
1969 a Dr. McArthur was testifying before the House Appropriations
Subcommittee.  They were trying to draw up the Defense Department Budget
for fiscal year 1970.  Dr. McArthur had a very interesting quote.  I am
going to play you a tape now of that quote.  By the way, at the break
point, Paul from Archives on Audio, my trusted cohort over here, had the
foresight and brilliance to copy this particular section of this House
Appropriations Subcommittee tape.  So if you would like to go home this
evening with a copy of it, Paul has characteristically prepared for this
eventuality.  So you will actually be able to get a hold of this quote.
        Now I'm going to play a short section of Radio Free America #16
and you'll hear what this Dr. McArthur had to say about the future of
biological warfare and the future of genetics and genetic engineering:

"Continuing now with my quotations from A Higher Form of Killing:

        'It is in the field of biological warfare that the most
frightening possibilities present themselves.  It is now nearly thirty
years since Crick and Watson made the momentous discovery of the double
helix structure of DNA, the molecule which controls heredity.  The
discovery has not yet, as far as is known, been applied to the business
of war.  But in the civilian laboratories of Europe and North America,
biologists are regularly tampering with the nature of life itself with
gene splicing or recombinant DNA.  It has been called the most awesome
discovery since man split the atom.  Should the breakthrough, like atomic
physics, come to be applied to warfare, the implications scarcely bare
thinking about.
        As long ago as 1962 forty scientists were employed at the U.S.
Army biological warfare laboratories on full-time genetics research.
Many others, it was said, appreciate the implications of genetics for
their own work.  The implications remain more specific seven years later
when a Department of Defense spokesman claimed that genetic engineering
could solve one of the major disadvantages of biological warfare, that it
is limited to diseases which occur naturally somewhere in the world.'

        And again, the next section here is from a U.S. House
Appropriations Subcommittee hearing for fiscal year 1969-70.  We are
going to read you some of the complete text here in just a second.
Listen to this statement very carefully because it is one of the keys to
the program:

                'Within the next five to ten years it would probably be
possible to make a new infective microorganism which could differ in
certain important respects from any known disease-causing organisms.
Most important of these is that it might be refractory to the
immunological and therapeutic processes upon which we depend to maintain
our relative freedom from infectious disease.'

        Now one of the keys here is the definition of the word
refractory.  Now the word refractory in medicine means to be resistant
to.  What they are talking about here is to develop a disease that would
be resistant to the immunological and therapeutic processes which
normally keep us healthy.  Obviously AIDS is certainly resistant to the
immune system.
        Now what's interesting is another meaning of the word refractory,
specifically in physics and biotechnology, is to break down.  A prism
refracts light.  It breaks it into its component spectra.  A refractory
telescope, for example, does the same thing.  Now the person speaking
these couple of sentences is a physician, so it may be that he was
speaking in the medical sense, in which refractory means to be resistant
to.  On the other hand he was referring to recombinant DNA.  In the
context of biotechnology refractory means to break down, as it does in
physics.  So whichever of the two definitions this doctor is using here,
what we have here is something very close to the clinical definition of
AIDS, only we have it in a House Appropriations Subcommittee for the
Department of Defense for fiscal year 1969 to 70, almost a full decade
before AIDS appears to have been infiltrating the population.  And,
again, we don't know whether refractory here means resistance to the
immune system, as it does in conventional medicine or break down, as it
does in biotechnology or physics.  But this is certainly an intriguing
statement, as I said, practically the clinical definition of AIDS, only
many, many years before the fact and coming from a Defense Department
Appropriations Hearing.
        Now, it is also interesting to note here how the authors, Paxson
and Harris, follow this statement.  They say:

        'The possibility that such a super-germ may have been
successfully produced in a laboratory somewhere in the world in the years
since that assessment was made is one which should not be too readily
cast aside.'"

        Now that basically is a forecast of what I believe the
authorities were working on.  You've just heard something which very
closely approximates the clinical definition of AIDS, only this is from a
House Appropriations Subcommittee Hearing in 1969.
        Now I'm going to begin a chronology of events that I believe to
be very closely related and which are inextricably involved with the
development of AIDS.  Now bear in mind, again, that this is 1969.
        In the year 1969, a number of primate laboratories, including one
at the University of California at Davis, not incidentally primate
laboratories, many of which got funding from the National Institutes of
Health, about which I will have more to say later, there was an outbreak
of immunodeficiency disease among primates in this laboratory.  Now a
friend of mine who is skilled in biotechnology and microbiology has said
that the virus which was identified, and here again, I'm not on my home
turf with some of the scientific information.  I have to trust my
instincts and the people that I know who are competent in this area.  But
this outbreak of immunodeficient disease in these primates was produced
by a virus which is now called SIV, the Simian Immuno Deficiency Virus.
This is a virus which is around today and which supposedly, well it
actually does come from Africa.  I'll explain more about that in a
second.  But this first occurred in primate laboratories in the United
States.
        Now this particular virus was discovered to have come from the
Green Monkey in Africa.  It should be noted that there are two species of
monkeys which are actually called the Green Monkey.  The species in
question here is one that has long been a staple of the diet of the
natives in that region.  The animal is captured.  It is brought into the
market places, sold on the hoof, and then it is basically taken home,
slaughtered, butchered, and eaten.  The notion that has been spread
around, and I'm going to talk about the disinformation vis a vis AIDS in
a little bit, but the notion that this disease could have come from
Africa, and this foreshadows some of Dr. Jordan's discussion that we will
hear in the second part of the lecture, the notion that this disease
could have come from Africa and been infecting people in Africa is not
only wrong, but in all probability, racist.
        It is said that a Green Monkey bit someone in Africa and that
this is how the disease got started.  There have been a number of other
variations on that theme.  One of the things that makes me so suspicious,
and I'm going to come back to this later, is that as the discussion
concerning AIDS as a biological warfare weapon has progressed, there have
been theories tossed out by the medical community, which I believe have
been deliberately concocted in order to cover up the true origin of the
disease.  Obviously that's my theory, but I will get to that in a minute.
        In any event, this particular virus which is native to the Green
Monkey does not hurt the Green Monkey.  One of the interesting things I
have learned as I've been studying AIDS, is I've come to appreciate how
absolutely beautiful nature can be, that is to say when human beings
aren't screwing it up deliberately, which unfortunately they do.  One of
the interesting things about viruses and virology is that most viruses
mutate in such a way as to become symbiotic with their host.  That is to
say they mutate genetically very readily.  Most viruses mutate to the
point where they do not hurt their host.  This benefits the virus because
the virus is not then attacked and destroyed by the immune system of the
host.  And obviously this benefits the host, too, because the host does
not get sick.
        The SIV virus is native to the Green Monkey and it does not hurt
the Green Monkey.  It hurts Macaques, a different primate and that is the
primate in the U.S. laboratories which became infected and acquired
immunodeficiency disease.  The SIV is very important because we are going
to come back to that later.
        Now we are still in 1969.  We are going to jump ahead to calendar
year 1971.  In that year under President Nixon's administration, Fort
Detrick, the Army's top chemical and biological warfare research center,
was largely turned over to the National Cancer Institute, one of the
National Institutes of Health, many of which have been funding these
primate laboratories which had this outbreak of immunodeficiency disease
in these Macaques.  Now, although Fort Detrick was turned over to the
National Cancer Institute and supposedly became a civilian institution,
it should be noted, and this is in Radio Free America #16, that the
National Cancer Institute's Frederick facility, which is Fort Detrick,
their molecular oncology research center was run for them by Litton
Biomedics.  It is a wholly owned biotechnology subsidiary of Litton
Industries, a major contractor and also a major vehicle for covert
operations.
        1967 there was a CIA coup which installed a fascist government in
Greece, and overthrew the legitimate government.  Litton Industries was a
major vehicle for the various machinations involved with that coup.  So
in 1971 we have Fort Detrick supposedly going civilian and being turned
over to the National Cancer Institute, but it is run for the National
Cancer Institute by Litton Biomedics, which contracts to run the NCI
facility.
        It should also be noted that co-habiting the Frederick research
facility for the National Cancer Institute at this point is the Army's
Institute of Infectious Diseases.  That is a military facility which
continues to do research on biological warfare, supposedly for defensive
purposes.  But that is an academic consideration because there is no
effective distinction between offensive and defensive research.
        Now we are in 1971 still.  We are going to jump ahead to 1974.
In 1974, the publication of the Army's Institute of Infectious Diseases,
which bear in mind is co-habiting Fort Detrick with the National Cancer
Institute at this point, first uses the term Acquired Immune Deficiency.
That term first appeared in the bulletin of the Army's Institute of
Infectious Diseases as far as I have been able to determine.  Myself and
others who have done this research have not been able to identify that
term, Acquired Immune Deficiency, in scientific literature prior to that
time.
        Now this is 1974.  We're going to jump ahead now to the late
1970s.  In the 1970s Hepatitis B, a very dangerous and infectious disease
was epidemic in the United States, in particular, among gays.  Now there
was research done to develop a Hepatitis B vaccine.  This vaccine had
some trial runs on gays in various North American cities, primarily New
York, Los Angeles, and San Francisco.
        It should be noted that only very promiscuous homosexuals were
permitted to take part in the Hepatitis B vaccination trial runs.  The
fellow who ran the Hepatitis B vaccination program was a Polish born
physician, actually I believe he was Ukrainian, named Wolf Szmuness.  The
biography of Wolf Szmuness suggests very strongly that Wolf Szmuness was
a spook, a spy, and in all probability, tied in with the Eastern Front
Division and the Soviet Union Division of the CIA, translate Gehlen.  He
had been imprisoned as a political prisoner by Stalin, somehow was
released.  The travels of Dr. Szmuness and that way he was able to get
appointments when he was almost new to the various countries he lived in,
he lived in Italy for a while, strongly suggest that he is an
intelligence agent or working for an intelligence agency of some kind.
        It should also be noted that in the late 1950s, he was the
roommate of a young Polish priest named Carrol Woytola, now, of course,
Pope John Paul II.  Pope John Paul II is an interesting fellow, too.
This is somewhat peripheral, but it may be relevant.  His rise within the
Vatican was largely due to a lay Catholic Order called Opus Dei, which
has extremely reactionary political views.  It was founded by a Spanish
priest named Father de Scriva de Balagaya, who was openly pro-fascist.
He was an ardent supporter of Francisco Franco, the fascist dictator of
Spain.  It should also be noted that the Pope was also supposedly a slave
laborer at some of the slave labor camps at Auschwitz.  But in 1982 when
the Vatican banking scandals broke, one of the people brought in by Pope
John Paul II to help straighten out the mess was a fellow named Hermann
Abbs.  In fact, Hermann Abbs, there was an article in the papers about
him recently.  He is publishing his memoirs.  He is being hailed as one
of the architects of the "new" Germany.  Well, Hermann Abbs was chairman
of Duotche Bank, one of the top commercial banks in Germany during the
Hitler period and today.  He also was a member of the Board of Directors
of I.G. Farben.  It was Hermann Abbs who put forth the venture capital to
build the slave labor camps around Auschwitz where the Pope worked
supposedly as a slave.  I suspect he was actually a labor capo.
        So we have Pope John Paul II, the roommate and close friend of
Wolf Szmuness bringing in his slave master to handle his finances.  Well,
if I had been a slave and I had some financial problems, I wouldn't bring
in my slave master to handle my financial problems for me.  But, then
again, I'm not the Pope, so what do I know.
        Now, it should be noted that in the late 1970s Wolf Szmuness is
running the Hepatitis B vaccination program.  And it should be noted that
only promiscuous gays are to be allowed to participate in the program.
        Dr. Alan Cantwell in his book, AIDS and the Doctors of Death, has
proposed that it was through Hepatitis B vaccination program, and I find
his evidence compelling, that gays were deliberately infected with AIDS.
It should be noted that the first AIDS cases are generally believed to
have surfaced among American gays in calendar year 1979.  Now bear in
mind this is ten years after 1969, of course.  And it was in l969 that in
that House Appropriations Subcommittee Hearing for the Defense budget for
fiscal 70 it was forecast that within the next five to ten years it
should be possible to make a disease like AIDS.
        Now in 1980 Ronald Reagan was running for President of the United
States, successfully, obviously and unfortunately.  One of the main
boosters, one of the main weapons in his political arsenal was the
Christian right, the former Moral Majority and others.  The Moral
Majority was openly advocating in 1980 capital punishment for
homosexuals.
        It should be noted, too, that on Labor Day weekend in 1980, my
friend Josh, who is gay and who I'm sorry to say is not here tonight, we
were doing some book shopping in downtown San Jose.  A friend of his,
also gay, lived nearby.  So we stopped off and had a couple of glasses of
wine with this fellow.  I, being the veteran political war horse that I
am and the indomitable will that I think I am, was encouraging this
individual to get politically active.
        Now we're talking Labor Day weekend in 1980 when Reagan kicked
off his campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi, where incidentally three
civil rights workers were brutally slain by the Ku Klux Klan in 1964.  I
think Reagan was sending a message to his constituency.
        But on Labor Day weekend of 1980 I told this fellow that he
should become active.  I made the prediction, I said, "If Ronald Reagan
gets elected President of the United States, the gays are going to be
wiped out."  He said, "Well, you know, I'm not into politics," which he
wasn't.  I encouraged him, perhaps more forcefully than I should have.
Josh got kind of upset with me.  We smoothed things over, but he said I
had been rude and that I shouldn't have tried to jolt the guy out of his
lethargy under the circumstances.
        Well, there is a footnote to that particular story.  Josh called
up my program about a year and a half ago.  I brought up that particular
conversation.  I asked him what had happened to his friend, Dave.  He
said he hadn't seen Dave in a couple of years, but that when he did see
him, he was deadly ill with AIDS.  So in all probability, he is dead
now.  I'm not trying to gloat over something like that.  It certainly
saddens me, but I think it is something that might be born in mind as you
listen to my predictions about the future.  They might seem a little
grim.  They might seem a little incredible.  You might want to think
about what happened to this fellow Dave as an example and take an
advisory from his situation.
        Now bear in mind we are still in 1980.  Ronald Reagan is running
for President of the United States.  The Moral Majority is calling for
capital punishment for homosexuals.  It should be noted, too, in this
context that in Weimar Germany, there was a very active gay rights
movement.  A fellow named Magnus Herschfeld was very active in promoting
gay rights in Weimar Germany.  It should be noted that as I covered in
the program The Pink Triangle, I borrowed from the Richard Plant book by
the same name, the issue of gay rights and homosexuality was used very
effectively by the German Nazi Party to tar all of progressive politics.
They were portrayed as homophiles and all sorts of nasty terms.
Homosexuality was used by the Nazi Party to tar their political
opponents, individually and collectively.
        It should also be noted that gays were among the very first
victims of the Nazi extermination programs.  They had to wear pink
triangles, whereas the Jews had to wear a yellow Star of David.  This
made the Nazi extermination program much more palatable, from a
psychological sense, to the German people.  They had grown accustomed to
seeing gays, a traditional out-group, being liquidated.  So when it came
time to liquidating other groups, there was already a very useful precedent.
        I see a very strong analogy in this country between the way the
Christian right and the right wing in general uses gay rights to tar
progressive politics and the way it was used in Weimar Germany.  In late
1981 there was publicity about the first AIDS cases.  It is believed that
in the United States AIDS first broke in 1979.  There is disinformation,
which I'm going to talk about later.  But in late 1981, there is the
first publicity about AIDS in the United States.  Kaposi's Sarcoma, a
rare form of cancer, was being found among gays, primarily in Los
Angeles, San Francisco, and New York, the same area where Wolf Szmuness
has conducted the Hepatitis B vaccination programs with, bear in mind,
only promiscuous gays, only promiscuous homosexuals.
        Next we're going to jump to 1983, Dr. Wolf Szmuness dies of
cancer.  Maybe it was a natural cancer.  God knows those happen.  Maybe
his karma finally caught up with him.  But one of the things I wonder
about is that as AIDS began to develop, I wonder whether he had been
assassinated with cancer.  It is a matter of record that the CIA and the
Defense Department had by 1954 perfected a means of giving people cancer
as a means of assassination.  It's a safe bet that in the 1980s and 90s,
given the advances in medical technology, those techniques are far more
advanced now.
        Now in 1983 Wolf Szmuness dies of cancer.  Next we are going to
jump to the Spring, 1984, April specifically of 1984, Dr. Robert Gallo of
the National Cancer Institute.  Now bear in mind Fort Detrick was turned
over to the National Cancer Institute, although it continued to co-habit
the facility with the Army's Institute of Infectious Diseases.  And bear
in mind that Fort Detrick was NCI's molecular oncology research
facility.  Molecular oncology refers to the producing of cancer at the
molecular level.  An oncogene is a gene that produces cancer.  Molecular
oncology is the study of that at the molecular level.
        In 1984 Robert Gallo of the National Cancer Institute has a press
conference with Margaret Heckler, the Secretary of Health, Education, and
Welfare.  They announced that they had discovered the cause of this dread
disease which had spread considerably by this time.  This was first
identified as a virus known as HTLV3, which Dr. Gallo said had evolved
from the HTLV1, Human T-cell Lymphoma Virus 1.  This is extremely
unlikely.  One of the reasons that it in all probability did not evolve
from this particular virus is that there is only a five percent degree of
homology between the HTLV1 and the HTLV3.  In other words, only five
percent of its genome, its genetic material, is similar to that of the
HTLV3.  That means that basically we are to believe the first official
version of AIDS, now bear in mind there have been several since and I'm
going to go into those, that means that this one virus has to have
spontaneously mutated ninety-five percent of its genetic material.  That
is extremely unlikely.
        Now in June of 1984 I produced on One Step Beyond the very first
public information suggesting, pointing out the National Cancer Institute
links, suggesting that AIDS might in fact be a biological warfare weapon,
given the history of testing on civilian populations.  I produced this
for the One Step Beyond show.  At that point Nip Tuck was the host of One
Step Beyond.  I put together the prepared portion for him and I did the
Hard Rain and Radio Free America shows, but it was simply too much
trouble to do two broadcasts a week and one a month.  So eventually the
programs merged and eventually Nip Tuck went to pursue his literary career.
        This is June of 1984.  Dave Emory comes up with the first
information suggesting that AIDS might be a biological warfare weapon.
In July of 1984, the National Security Agency reclassifies the files of
the National Cancer Institute "Top Secret," which is unusual.  You would
expect that with this disease growing with the priority on fighting this
disease growing that the files of the National Cancer Institute would be
opened up to permit research.  Not so.  In July of 1984, three months
after the AIDS virus is discovered, the files of the National Cancer
Institute were reclassified "Top Secret," which they are, as far as I
know, to this day.
        Now in late 1984, I am going to introduce a conjectural element,
it was one of the most unpleasant experiences of my life and I've had a
number of them.  It's something oddly enough, which, if my hypothesis is
correct, it is something I'm very proud of, but it's something that,
frankly, scared the you know what out of me at the time.  In December of
1984 I was producing the Hard Rain series on AIDS, several programs.  A
listener who monitors short-wave sent me a post card saying that Radio
Moscow in late December of 1984 had a broadcast which said that basically
one of the only Americans working for peace was David Emory who has done
much to control biological and psychological weapons.  At the time I was
also working on the Radio Free America #5, #6, and #7 series having to do
with mind control.  The only work I have ever done on biological warfare
is AIDS.
        Now one of the methodological considerations, one of the major
methodological tools of Soviet propaganda has been to use Western sources
in their information.  I should note that I have no grief for the late
Soviet Union, which doesn't even exist anymore.  But it is worth noting
that Soviets in their propaganda have traditionally used Western
journalistic sources.  Many of you, perhaps, have seen the movie Dr.
Strangelove.  If you haven't seen it, it's a really fine movie.  But at
one point, the Soviets and the American high command and the President
are discussing how to shoot down some American bombers which had been
dispatched by a mad general to begin World War III.  The Soviets have
revealed that they have a doomsday machine, which if attacked, will
automatically blow up the whole world.  So at one point, I believe it was
Peter Sellers playing the President of the United States, he asks
Ambassador Kissoff, the Soviet Ambassador, he says, "Ambassador Kissoff,
where did you first learn about the doomsday machine?"  Kissoff goes,
"From the Western press."  So it is a common technique.
        In late 1984 Radio Moscow identifies David Emory.  Now there was
also a former Republican Senator from Maine named David Emory, who was
involved with anti-nuke activity, but I don't think he was doing much
about biological and psychological weapons.
        It should also be noted that the Silicon Valley, being the
epicenter of the defense electronics industry, is an area of high
strategic importance and one of great interest to the Soviet Union.  No
Soviets were allowed within something like a forty or fifty mile radius
of this area.  Although it would certainly be easy for Soviet or other
intelligence to pick up a radio signal coming from that area.  I don't
know if I'm the David Emory that they were referring to, but I suspect
that may very well be the case.  The reason that is the case is that in
1985 the Soviet Literary Gazette began a campaign as identifying AIDS as
a U.S. biological warfare weapon.  I want to take note of the fact that I
began doing that in June of 1984, so I'm not parroting Soviet
propaganda.  It is my suspicion that the Soviets have been parroting
yours truly.  Radio Moscow, I've only heard it a couple of times.  It's a
pretty bad act if you've ever heard it.  It's about as shabby as most of
the rest of the country is at this point.  But it should be noted that
the Soviets in 1985 the Soviet Literary Gazette begins its first public
announcement of the Soviet propaganda campaign, pinning AIDS on the
United States as a biological warfare weapon.
        Also in 1985, a Ugandan Carposi's Sarcoma expert named Dr. Ann
Bailey voices in a New York Times article the opinion that she's
surprised that no one has ever thought to identify AIDS as the result of
a genetic engineering accident.  So she was thinking along much the same
lines I was.  I don't think it was an accident at all.  I think that it
was deliberately created.
        It should also be noted that as we jump ahead to 1986, in
February of 1986, and I'm going to play this tape of the reading of this
article in the second part of the program, a terrifying proposal was made
by various right wing institutions, including the Hoover Institute and
various military related institutions which had been involved in
biological warfare research to begin quarantining people who were
infected with AIDS or who were at high risk, HIV positive or high risk,
because it was their feeling that the disease might be casually spread.
This was being used at the time, and it's worth noting that this has been
defeated, at least for the time being, as a pretext for drastically
reducing civil liberties in the United States.  We are going to hear
about that later as I hypothesize about why such a disease might have
been created.
        But we're in February of 1986 at this point.  In April of 1986, I
produced Radio Free America #16, the Archive show on AIDS called, AIDS:
Epidemic or Weapon of War?, not coincidentally, the title of this
particular lecture.  Now also in 1986 after there has already been
considerable discussion of the theory that AIDS is a biological warfare
weapon, the first of a number of what I believe to be deliberately false
theories about the origins of AIDS or pinpointing the origin of AIDS
began.  There was an article which identified a fellow that had died in
1959 in Great Britain, supposedly of AIDS.  Also there was an article
which said that a boy in St. Louis died in 1969.
        This seems virtually impossible from an epidemiological
standpoint, because frankly, how did they get the disease?  This is
supposed to be a sexually-transmitted and blood-borne disease.  Where did
it come from?  It is also extremely unlikely that a disease this deadly
and of this kind could have been present in the population and not been
detected, the reasons for which we will hear Dr. Jordan talk about a
little later.  It is my belief, and I can't prove it, but that the
already considerable discussion underway in 1986 about AIDS as a
biological warfare weapon occasioned this disinformation effort of
pinpointing AIDS as far back as 1959.
        If the disease was present, it almost certainly would have been
detected, particularly if it was present in an industrialized nation like
Great Britain or the United States.  We are going to hear Dr. Jordan talk
about how thoroughly health matters are monitored in the third world.
They are monitored there very effectively, even though health care is not
good there.  They are monitored much more closely in industrialized
nations.  So it seems virtually impossible that this disease could have
infected one person in Britain and one person in the United States ten
years later.  Where did they get it from?  Was it blood-borne?  Was it
sexually transmitted?  And how come nobody else was discovered with this
disease?  Now bear in mind there has been research being done on AIDS for
five years publicly at this point.  And all of a sudden they go, "Woops!
Look what we found going all the way back when!"  It is extremely
unlikely under the circumstances.  I suspect that this information was
deliberately concocted in order to combat the research that was being
done into the theory of AIDS as a biological warfare weapon.
        Now we have August of 1986.  In August the Defense Department
Official named Douglas Feith is quoted in an article published in the
Washington Post on August 18, which was also carried in the San Francisco
Chronicle, in which he says that due to the advances in genetic
engineering in the last five to ten years, a similar time period that we
heard in 1969 when they were casting ahead, in 1986 due to the advances
in genetic engineering in the last five to ten years, AIDS first detected
in American gays in 1979, the Defense Department was re-evaluating and
had come to a different conclusion concerning the viability of biological
warfare.
        Now biological warfare had been shunned as a really practical
means of waging war for the simple reason that the motive for waging war
is economic gain and territorial gain.  If you spread a bunch of wee
beasties around to infect the enemy troops and make them get sick and
die, well, there is no guarantee that when your troops occupy the
territory that they're not going to sicken and die also.  So for this
reason biological warfare had not been deemed to be particularly
effective under the circumstances.
        However, remember that one of the major foci of the U.S.
biological warfare research program had been to develop ethno- and
culturally-specific biological warfare agents.   In August of 1986,
Douglas Feith says that we've now re-evaluated our assessment of how
viable biological warfare is due to the advances in genetic engineering
in the last five to ten years, language unnervingly similar to that which
Dr. McArthur had forecast ahead in 1969, ten years before AIDS was first
detected in American gays.
        Now it should also be noted that in late 1986 a number of
officials quit from the Centers for Disease Control because they said
that the Center for Disease Control was deliberately covering up
information which would permit AIDS to be combatted.  Specifically there
was information developed by the CDC that non-oxynol nine, a common
ingredient in the spermicides which are used with a contraceptive
diaphram, would kill the AIDS virus in sixty seconds.  Yet this
information was being deliberately suppressed.  One of the questions I
have is why that information was being deliberately suppressed.  Was it
because they wanted the disease to spread?  Or it may very well have been
because the medical industry wanted to continue to rake in the big bucks,
which they continue to do, in order to develop a more sophisticated and,
not incidentally, expensive cure.  That may be one of the reasons why
AIDS has not spread into the heterosexual population as rapidly as it
has, although it is now beginning to do so.
        By the way, AIDS has been renamed HIV because a number of people
have criticized the notion that HTLV3 could have come from HTLV1.
Ninety-five percent of its genome, its genetic material is different.  So
you are looking at the spontaneous generation of ninety-five percent of
its genetic material, which seems extremely unlikely.
        An East German physician named Dr. Yakov Siegel in a paper drawn
largely from Western medical sources has pointed out that it appears that
the AIDS virus was partly developed from the Medi Visna  Vishnu virus, a
virus which effects sheep.  He concluded from a mathematical standpoint,
given the number of genes that would have to have spontaneously mutated,
and he pointed out the very close relationship with the Medi Visna
Vishnu virus.  He believes that HIV1 was a splicing of part of the genome
of the HTLV1 with the Medi Visna  Vishnu virus.  But he said that the
mathematical odds against HIV1 being a spontaneous mutation from the Medi
Visna  Vishnu virus was one in six times ten to the eighty-second power.
        Now, those are pretty long odds.  I don't think you would want to
go up to Vegas or Reno or Tahoe and let your bank roll ride on that.
Maybe you will.  Maybe you want to have unprotected sex, too, with a
stranger, but the odds are about the same.  I wouldn't advise either of
them.
        Now in late 1986 a second variant of the HIV is found in Africa.
Here again, I'm relying on the information provided to me by scientific
and medical people.  I cannot critically evaluate it, so you should take
what I say with a grain of salt.  But I think what I'm about to say is
very, very important and should be investigated.  HIV2 is identical to
simian immuno virus.  Now bear in mind that's a virus which is native to
the Green Monkey of Africa.  It does not hurt the Green Monkey.  But when
it turned up in Macaques in primate laboratories associated with the
National Institutes of Health, it produced simian immunodeficiency
syndrome.  Well the SIV is identical, according to people whose opinions
I trust.  They may be wrong, so you want to take this with a grain of
salt.  It is identical to HIV2 except for a piece of genetic material
called a stop codon placed directly in the middle of one gene.
        Now a stop codon basically functions according to my information
in a manner analogous to the period in a sentence.  It instructs your
genes to stop reading one amino acid sequence and to begin reading
another.  The notion that this could have been a spontaneous mutation, a
random act of mutogenic agents in the environment is very, very, very
difficult to accept.  This is in the opinion of those who have done the
research the smoking gene because the HIV2 discovered in Africa in late
1986 is almost identical with the simian immuno virus, bear in mind,
native to the Green Monkey, except that this stop codon is placed right
in the middle of one gene, suggesting almost certainly that somebody knew
where to place this particular piece of genetic material.
        It should be noted there are many mutogenic agents, chemicals,
x-rays, things of this kind.  They would alter genetic material in a
random fashion.  Most adaptations are maladaptive.  That is to say they
either weaken or destroy the organism.  Adaptive mutations are relatively
rare, so the SIV and the HIV2 are virtually identical except for this one
"period," the stop codon placed in the middle of the gene.
        Now we are going to jump ahead to 1987 when the American far
right begins a campaign to counteract what they see as a very effective
Soviet propaganda campaign, basically pinning AIDS on the United States
as a biological warfare weapon.  That is my belief as well.  There was an
article in the San Francisco Sunday Examiner This World Magazine by an
ultra-right wing activist and propagandist named Roy Dodson, in which he
said that generally Soviet propaganda is not very effective.  Generally
it is shallow and doesn't have too much effect.  But the Soviet
propaganda campaign about AIDS being developed by the United States was
being very effective and that citizens in third world countries in
particular were making it a point to avoid Americans and American
military personnel.  It was causing the United States a lot of problems.
This is early 1987.
        Now it should also be noted, and I'm sorry I can't give you the
name of the individual, but my files were seriously disrupted in the
earthquake of 1989.  I had to move a bunch of material into a storage
area and I have not had a chance to put this information on tape at this
point.  But this special White House advisor on biotechnology policy, his
name I do not know off the top of my head, I tried to find the article in
my storage area, but that thing is heaped half way up and it's not the
easiest thing to find, but he resigned his post as White House
biotechnology advisor because of a conflict of interest.  Now this
conflict of interest was that he was also very much involved with a
company called Porton International.  Porton International is located at
Porton Down in Great Britain, which was Britain's top biological and
chemical warfare research center.   Just like Fort Detrick it was largely
turned over to supposedly civilian authorities.  Porton International,
which this guy was very close to and involved with, was also a facility
or company which had moved onto an old biological warfare research
center.
        In 1987 the media battle about AIDS as a biological warfare
weapon was joined in a big way.  The summer issue of Covert Action
Information Bulletin for 1987 carried a long series of articles as a
biological warfare weapon, but they did not go as far as it might have.
        In 1988 the intermediate range missile treaty was concluded
between the Soviet Union and the United States.  This basically meant
that the United States would destroy its intermediate range missiles in
Europe.  The Soviet Union would do the same.  It was precisely at this
time that the Soviets agreed to drop their propaganda campaign concerning
AIDS as a U.S. biological warfare weapon.  I cannot prove anything, so
this is conjecture.  But I suspect that given the American right's and
the American military's concern about the effectiveness of the Soviet
Union propaganda campaign that one of the quid pro quo in this particular
intermediate range missile agreement's sub rosa element was that the
Soviets would knock off this propaganda campaign at the same time.  So if
that broadcast on Radio Moscow alluding to David Emory having done much
to control biological weapons was what I suspect it may have been, a way
of backing off the CIA by using my research, it is within the realm of
possibility, and this is not to be egotistical, but this may very well
have something to do with it, but I was basically used as a pawn in one
of the greatest games ever played.  It was not something that I felt very
good about.  When I first read this communication about the Radio Moscow
broadcast, I was one depressed puppy because here is the KGB using me to
back off the CIA.  It was sort of like trying to break up a bar fight
between these two enormous giants, saying, "Now, boys, let's be nice."  I
didn't feel too good about it.  I was pretty depressed.  But it is within
the realm of possibilities that I was used as a pawn in this enormous game.
        I'm going to end my chronology at this point.  We are going to
take a break and I'm going to come back and I'm going to talk about some
of the medical evidence, some of the scientific evidence in connection
with AIDS as a biological warfare weapon, which I believe it is.  And we
are going to listen to some tapes.  And the third section, we probably
won't take a break, I'm going to talk about why I feel this was being
done.  So we are going to take a break and then more of the lecture.




                                Part II

        One of the things that I indicated at the beginning is that I'm
not going to concentrate past a point on medical and scientific
evidence.  I have had people whose opinions I trust advise me in some of
these matters.  But as I indicated before, it would be pretentious and
intellectually dishonest for me to hold forth on medical and scientific
evidence past a certain point.
        By the way, for those of you taking notes, Radio Free America #16
has most, not all, of the information.  There are some things I have not
had a chance to put in there, but most of it is.  But this lecture is
being taped.  Paul will have tapes of this lecture at Archives on Audio.
So you can always get a hold of the tapes and peruse them at your will.
[Archives on Audio, Post Office Box 170023, San Francisco, California
94117-0023; telephone [phone]; e-mail <[e-mail]>.]
        One of the major factors that I think may, and other scientific
people think may loom in the consideration of AIDS is what is known as
cross-vectoring.  A lot of people have asked why is it that people can
become HIV infected and some people will get sick and some people don't.
AIDS related complex, Kaposi's Sarcoma , AIDS related pneumonia, it
appears to be really a series of different diseases.  The only common
denominator is the HIV.
        One of the things that's been suggested is that AIDS really
results from cross-vectoring.  In other words you don't get AIDS or some
of the AIDS related diseases unless you are infected with several
different organisms, including HIV.  That obviously would be quite
utilitarian from the standpoint of biological warfare.  Just say
arbitrarily, if you need five organisms to get a particular disease or
the interaction of three, you could infect the population with one or two
of these and then when you want to get rid of someone or a group of
people, then you give them the magic bullet or the magic virus, no pun
intended here.  You give them HIV and out they go.  That is one of the
things that has been suggested in connection with AIDS.
        Another major factor, one of the scientific aspects that I think
is most compelling, and it's the one I'm going to discuss at greatest
length this evening, is the epidemiology of AIDS.  That is to say, the
study of how the disease is spread.  The single most compelling piece of
information from a medical and scientific standpoint, and again the
relationship between SIV and HIV2 is something that I believe is very
significant.  But not being qualified in genetics or biotechnology, I
cannot critically evaluate that past a point.  But the epidemiology of
AIDS makes no sense.  We have been told that the disease has existed as
far back as 1959 and that it wasn't discovered until 1981.  That is
absolutely incredible.  We are told that the disease appeared in Great
Britain in 1959 and in the United States in 1969.
        The study of diseases, epidemiology, is such that if it appeared
in the third world, anywhere in the third world, even areas where public
health care is not good, it would have been detected.  You are going to
hear a talk in just a second by a fellow named Dr. Wilbert Jordan of
Martin Luther King Hospital in Los Angeles.  Dr. Jordan is an
epidemiologist.  He is going to talk about some of the profound anomalies
and some of the contradictions in the official version of the
epidemiology of AIDS.
        As he pointed out, loss of fever, which occurred in Nigeria, I
believe it was in 1969, at the time there were something like a half
dozen cases of it.  Every airport in the United States was on alert, was
on quarantine for this disease.  Other diseases have appeared in the
third world and after only a few cases, the diseases were identified and
people were on alert for them.
        He points out that in most places in the third world, due to poor
nutrition and also due to the fact that there are other infectious
organisms which have compromised the immune systems of those people, a
disease like AIDS which is incredibly deadly would have spread very, very
quickly and very noticeably.
        Again, we have also been told that AIDS came from the Green
Monkey, that supposedly a monkey bit someone and this is how the disease
got started.  Well, the Green Monkey has been eaten as a staple of the
natives where it lives.  The notion that a monkey could have bitten
somebody and given it to them that way when the people have been eating
the monkey all this time, it's actually sort of a man bites dog
situation.  It is a little bit too much to believe.  It should also be
noted that AIDS when it first got going, and this information is somewhat
dated now, was heterosexual in Africa, heterosexual in Haiti, and yet it
effected primarily gays in the United States.  Another thing which is not
covered by Dr. Jordan in the discussion that you are going to hear, is
that another group which has suffered very, very heavily from AIDS are
Native Americans, American Indians on reservations.  Now that just
doesn't compute.  If you know anything about Native Americans on the
reservation, it's not considered all that cool for a white person to be
caught on a reservation after dark.  This is in no way to cast aspersions
on Indians or Native Americans.  But the fact of the matter is because of
the legacy of oppression that the Native Americans have experienced at
the hands of the white race, they are not really crazy about it.  It's
not advisable for the average white person to get caught on a reservation
after dark.
        The epidemiology of this country just doesn't compute.  How do we
have heterosexuals in Africa, heterosexuals in Haiti, and homosexuals and
Native Americans in the United States?  This is basically, or so we've
been told, a venereal disease, basically.  I just don't see a whole lot
of American gays flocking to Native American reservations in order to
have sex with Indians.  It just doesn't compute.  And how come it's
heterosexual in Africa?
        One of the things I've learned as a political researcher over the
years is that basically the story of the Emperor's New Clothes is a very
important consideration.  You all know the story of the Emperor's New
Clothes.  The Emperor wanted an outfit of magnificent clothes and
basically was fooled by the local tailor.  He was told that he had a
marvelous suit.  But in fact he was wearing nothing.  He was walking
around buck naked.  The fact of the matter is nobody would say that the
guy was naked, because it was just too embarrassing.
        The same basic thing holds true with political research.  People
are afraid to use common sense.  But the fact of the matter is that the
principle of the Emperor's New Clothes applies.  People are told that the
Emperor has this marvelous new ermine cape, then they're not going to ask
about that thing hanging down there.  They're going to be told that's an
ermine tail and they'll believe it, too.
        It's basically worth noting the principle from the Wizard of Oz:
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.  You want to pay
attention to the man behind the curtain.
        The epidemiology of AIDS as we have been told it exists just
doesn't compute.  I would note that the three countries in the third
world that first became seriously infected with AIDS were Zaire in
Africa, Haiti, and Granada in the Caribbean, all of which are U.S.
sponsored dictatorships.  Now it has since spread much farther in the
third world, as it has in the United States.  But that is worth noting.
        I would also underscore a point that Dr. Jordan makes which is
that Haiti is on the same island as the Dominican Republic, which did not
at least at first experience a major AIDS outbreak.  Both countries are
on the island of Hispanola, separated by a mountain chain.  But how can
you have AIDS ravaging Haiti, but you don't have AIDS ravaging the
Dominican Republic?
        The third section of the lecture this evening, I am going to talk
about some of the motivational factors that I believe propelled this
disease and propelled the people who developed it to develop it.  Racism
and extermination have a great deal to do with it.  It's worth noting
that the epidemiology just doesn't compute with AIDS.
        Having said that, I'm going to play a tape now.  By the way, this
information is also in Radio Free America #16.  This is a discussion that
was originally conducted on KPFA radio station by Rayna Cowan.  She
interviewed Dr. Wilbur Jordan, again an epidemiologist with Martin Luther
King Hospital in Los Angeles about AIDS.
        The following was taped off of KPFA's Traffic Jam program on
Monday, December 16, 1984 between the hours of 4:30 PM and 5:15 PM,
Pacific Standard Time:

        Rayna Cowan (RC):        "The reason why I played that song is
because 'Some Day My Prince Will Come' is not actually something you can
look forward to.  One of the growing diseases in the United States today
is AIDS.  With me on the phone right now I have a person who is an expert
in many different aspects of AIDS.  He is the director of graduate
medical education at Martin Luther King Hospital in Los Angeles.  He is
the former Public Health Chief for the Southern Area of Los Angeles
County.  He has had training in infectious diseases.  I want to welcome
Dr. Wilbur Jordan to the airwaves.  Good afternoon, Doctor.
        Dr. Wilbur Jordan (WJ):  Thank you.  Good afternoon.
        RC:  I had heard about you originally from a friend of mine who
was in UCLA Medical School who studied with you.  You had done a lot of
research on infectious diseases.  Right now we have more and more
information coming out about infectious diseases, where they come from
and how they start.  I am especially interested in AIDS.  I wanted to get
the information of somebody who is an expert in epidemiology.  Why don't
you begin telling me exactly what epidemiologists study and how this
relates to learning about AIDS.
        WJ:  Epidemiology is the study of diseases and disease trends,
and trying to determine where the disease comes from, how long it takes
it to go through a complete cycle, its virulence, how potent it can be,
etc.  So an epidemiologist really studies the causes and effects of the
disease.  He or she doesn't necessarily treat the disease.  Some are also
medically trained, as I am.  Many have a Master's in Public Health or a
Doctorate in Public Health and may not necessarily be physicians.  But
they study disease trends, disease outbreaks and not treat the
individual.  They look at the overall disease in a cluster, rather than
individual cases.
        RC:  Well, I can't really say what kind of diseases you have
studied.  But your expertise, what has it proved about certain diseases,
especially in the past few years?  Diseases like AIDS or the
Legionnaire's Disease are considered new diseases and we've never
experienced them before.
        WJ:  Right.
        RC:  What does that actually mean?  How can a disease really come
out of nowhere.
        WJ:  Well, it isn't that it comes out of nowhere.  We have to
explain where it comes from.  We see Swine Flu develop.  We have the flu
vaccine every year.  And it changes all the time.  Influenza is a
changing virus, which is why we give it names like Hong Kong, Brazil,
Tokyo, Influenza A Tokyo, because a new strain is found in that area and
we always name it for that.  So that is nothing new.  We have diseases
that are developing all the time.
        Some of the things that are interesting about AIDS, though, to me
is the lack of attention as to where it has come from.  We tend to keep
looking outside of the United States shores.  I personally, as your
friend may have told you, question some of the present theories as to
where AIDS comes from just using common sense.  One doesn't have to be an
epidemiologist.  Just look at what we see and ask some questions.
        This is a disease.  It has a high morbidity.  It is deadly.  It
is the most impressive and critical crisis we have had in public health
in any of our generations, whether you are seventy or whether you are
seven.  This is worse than polio.  Even Small Pox, I would dare say, was
not as critical as this is right now.
        But I don't think we are really looking at some of the very
simple questions in terms of where did this come from.  And that is where
I disagree with some other people.
        RC:  When you mention where it comes from, I have heard stories
that it comes from rabbits from Southern Japan.  I've heard it comes from
monkeys from Haiti.  I've heard that it started in Haiti or Zaire.  There
are many theories about where it started.
        WJ:  That's one thing about the American personality.  We think
of ourselves as being better than everybody else.  So whenever something
bad happens, we say, 'Where did it come from?' assuming it couldn't have
come from here.  I think the Haitian theory was really ridiculous.  It's
a disease that is basically effecting Americans.  Over eighty-five
percent of all cases in the world still, and we are now in the sixth year
of this disease, is American.  It is an American disease.  Most of the
cases in Europe or outside of this country, you can trace back to having
had contact with someone in this country.  The only atypical ones are the
ones in France that can be traced back to Zaire, which has been
different.  But for the most part, the European cases were traced back to
the United States.
        So you have a disease that is effecting a reasonably large number
of people with a very high mortality rate.  At this point those who even
live to get out of the hospital the first time have a life expectancy of
about two years.  The overwhelming majority in the United States, three
main areas particularly, New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles.
That's unusual.  Viruses, bacteria don't do that.
        Diseases don't create themselves, don't become born in one
country, get on a plane or a boat, go to a second country, become
epidemic for two or three years, and then be found retrospectively in the
first country.  And I say this because of what was said about Haiti.  The
first five hundred cases we knew about in this country, there were no
cases in Haiti.  And those persons who had it hadn't been to Haiti,
hadn't been around any Haitians.  San Francisco is epidemic right now.
You don't have many Haitians there.  In fact, if you have any cases, I
think it's been one or two who are Haitians.  In American cities that
have large numbers of Haitians, i.e., Washington, D. C., Boston,
Philadelphia, you don't have many cases of AIDS.  Miami is a port that
has them and so does New York, but your other major cities that have
large Haitian populations, don't have large cases of AIDS.
        RC:  So where do you think AIDS does come from?
        WJ:  I think we have to look at our own forty-eight states to ask
where did it come from.  I say that because if you look at Haiti again.
Let's look at Haiti.  If we accept that theory, that means either someone
from here went there and got it and brought it back, or someone from
there brought it to this country.  Right?
        RC:  Yes.
        WJ:  Well, if you accept someone from here went there, the first
cases were in white homosexual males, the majority.  Then, I would have
to ask, one, why only white homosexual males from New York, San
Francisco, and Los Angeles.  Frankly, those white homosexual males who
travel to Haiti for an adventurous trip don't tend to get involved with a
dirty looking native boy, to sound very whatever.  Certainly a large
number of white homo- and heterosexual from Europe also go to Haiti.  If
it was from someone going to Haiti from this country, then, one, why the
predominance in those three cities; and two, why didn't we see it also in
Europe since you have whites from Europe also going to Haiti and no one
there took it back.  I have to postulate that the virus only liked white
homosexual males from New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles.  That's a
very, very particular virus.  I don't buy that.
        If you tell me that someone from Haiti brought it over here, I
say one, it's interesting.  We never heard of it being in Haiti until we
had the Haitians put in concentration camps in Florida.  Then suddenly it
was backtracking and cited in Haiti.  Two, the average Haitian and the
above- and below-average Haitian who come to the United States move into
a black Haitian community, which intermingles more with the routine black
community, which has some association with the white community, and will
finally find its way to the white gay community.  Haitians do not have a
strong association with white male homosexuals.  So again, how does it
get from the boat to the white gay male community in Los Angeles, San
Francisco, and New York and bypassing the Haitian community and the black
community, particularly in Los Angeles, where we've had no cases of it.
That just makes no sense.
        You have a disease that is predominantly in Americans.  There are
other cities, Chicago, New York, Washington, Philadelphia, Baltimore, New
Orleans, with very large gay populations, larger in number than San
Francisco, but are not at all effected with this number of cases.  So it
is not just numbers of homosexuals.  It is not just promiscuity.
        What is unique about those three cities is the fact that they
have a very structured gay community, more than any other city.  I think
that's interesting.  I think we need to be asking 'Is there an
association with that fact?'  The three cities that we have rampant
cases, a really high number of cases, and if you can rate it, these three
cities have a more structured gay community.  Washington, D. C. has a
very, very large gay community, but it's a very integrated gay
community.  So does Chicago.  So does New Orleans.  But those three
cities have a very identifiable gay communities.  Is that by accident or
is that also coincidental?
        I mean there are too many coincidences here for me to accept.  To
me it points to this being a disease that is an American disease.  Now
where it came from, one can speculate and go from one extreme to the
other.  But I personally think it was something that we created in some
kind of laboratory here.
        RC:  I think it's interesting that researchers are spending a lot
of time trying to figure out where it came from.  And not that much money
is being spent on research.  Some people are speculating on the idea that
why is it certain gay populations.  You just mentioned that it's three
urban centers that seem to be the ones that are getting it.  And the news
media is playing up the fact of lifestyle.  There are other reasons.
Well, you mentioned earlier the unification of these particular gay
communities.  How do you think that could be used in some way, both to
fight the disease and for somehow the disease to be brought in?
        WJ:  Well, I hope I can speak freely without offending someone.
What is unique about white homosexual males, and I would separate them
from black homosexual males, particularly is that they have tried to
portray themselves as an ethnic group.  You have now a new ethnic group
with no international ties.  It is an American ethnic group.
        You really can't say that about black homosexuals because black
homosexuals haven't been in the closet to come out of.  They've been out
of the closet.  You can go to any black church in any major city and you
will find people who everyone knows is gay, who is functioning, who has a
very established role in churches and other organizations, too.  This
again, to me, is a white male homosexual phenomena.
        The best way I can explain it is to give an example.  If I were
to have or you were to give me a virus that had an effect on skin color
and we said that this virus would make black people sterile, but it may
turn white people green.  But, we need to test this.  We've seen it in
rats.  We've seen it in monkeys.  Let's see if it will do what we think
it will do in black people.  Well, I know there are certain places I can
go in the black community where the people are basically total
association, total lifestyle of black people.  I wouldn't go to Second
Baptist Church in Los Angeles.  I wouldn't go to [unclear] Baptist Church
in New York.  I don't know any names of the major churches in San
Francisco, but my point, I wouldn't go to a place that had a very middle
class type of black audience because those people would have contact the
next day with whites.  So you would have an overflow into the white
community right away.
        I do know where there are clubs.  I do know where there are
[unclear] churches.  I do know where there are places I can go to in the
black community where the people go first, second, third, and go probably
four generations, their contacts are all black.  I don't know that about
the gay community.  I think you have that same counterpart in New York,
San Francisco, and Los Angeles.  You don't have it as much in Washington,
Chicago, and other cities, but you have the numbers.  So somebody else
may know what places they can go that you could do the same thing.
        In some of the early cases of the disease you have a lot of
interesting shows, particularly in San Francisco where there were nine
people, all had been at one bar at a table.  One physician in San Franciso
knew twenty of the first forty-five cases.  That's atypical.  There's no
one physician in any city, even if he was himself a gay doctor or just
served in the gay community, would know that just by accident.  That's
strange.
        There have been too many sort of strange things happen with this
disease.  And one still can't account for the fact that now in 1984,
we're going into 85, this disease started in 79, you still are seeing the
same percentages stay in the same three cities.  No other disease does
that.  Hepatitis didn't do that.  [unclear] didn't do that.
        San Francisco is probably the gay capital of the U.S. in terms of
somebody in Des Moines, Iowa or Little Rock deciding where to go.  They
go to San Francisco, New York, or Los Angeles.  Still in a lot of those
cases that you've had in those cities have been people who have come to
San Francisco, or went to Los Angeles or New York and got infected and
came back.  But you haven't had it set up that much there and started
spreading.  That's interesting.  You don't have in many cities with
reasonable and sizeable gay communities an ongoing epidemic, like you
have in San Francisco, which is now really out of hand.
        RC:  That's interesting, because I think the doctors around here
are talking about AIDS as being a social phenomena versus a disease
phenomena.
        WJ:  Well, you know when you say social, homosexuals today are
not doing anything they weren't doing in the times of Rome.  Their bodies
haven't changed.  There is still the same anatomy.  Nothing is new.  The
most new things are basically the cosmetics one uses.  That has not been
before.  But certainly the sex acts aren't new.  Men do one particular
sex act that is strictly a male act that you don't find women and women
doing or men and women doing.  From my reading, I haven't heard of it
being that long.  I would say that's the only new sex act that involves
using the fist.  But other than that, sex acts per se is nothing new.
        So it can't just be the sex act.  It can't be promiscuity.  We've
had promiscuous heterosexuals, homosexuals for years.  That's nothing
new.  In San Francisco, and in Little Rock, and in Oklahoma City, you've
had promiscuity for years in terms of one individual being promiscuous,
in terms of a lot of individuals being promiscuous.  Gay bath houses,
you've had them for years.  At least twenty years you've had bath
houses.  So that's nothing new.
        I've had fifty-six cases, most of whom, in terms of their sexual
contact, you really can find it being two to six months.  With some
saying four years, I don't believe that.  Most of the patients I've had,
their contact trail was relatively two to four month incubation period.
If that is the case, this is something new.
        Now when Lot's Fever, if you remember in 72, 73, became known in
Africa before the first case got out, we knew about it.  Quarantine
stations at all of our major ports were on alert.  We kept everyone.
Small Pox, if someone got a fever on the plane from any country that had
Small Pox, you knew about it.  We knew how many cases of Small Pox were
in the deepest part of Ethiopia, Somalia, and India.  [another disease,
unclear], we knew, we caught it.  Now I'm expected to believe that this
virus, which is so much deadlier, which wipes you out in America, which
is among the healthiest persons in the world, I'm now expected to believe
it existed in Haiti, which is the poorest country in this hemisphere so
the average person's system is already compromised.  If AIDS began in
Haiti, Haiti wouldn't have any people.  And if AIDS began in Haiti, why
don't we see it in the Dominican Republic, which is the same island with
a mountain that separates the two countries.  It makes no sense.
        RC:  We're speaking with Dr. Wilbur Jordan.  He is the Director
of Graduate Medical Education at Martin Luther King Hospital in Los
Angeles.  He is the former Public Health Chief for the Southern Area of
Los Angeles County.  He has had training in infectious diseases.  We're
almost running out of time, Dr. Jordan.  It seems to me that you're
building up to say something.  From what you're saying, it seems to me
that there's some type of testing going on.  Maybe I'm at liberty to say
that.  But, what do you think?  Why are these certain populations getting
it?  I wish we had more time to talk.  In the future we can do a longer
interview.
        WJ:  I don't think I want to say why.  I think we need to ask
ourselves why.  Pick up any book and look at any other disease.  You
would see it is extremely difficult for any other disease, Hepatitis B,
which we feel is being transmitted the same way.  It has not stayed
strictly within the gay male community in the three cities.  All I'm
really suggesting is that we start asking ourselves, one, why do we
continue to look outside of these shores for the cause of it or the
origin of this disease.  And why does it tend to stay in three
metropolitan areas when there are many other cities in this country that
have very large gay populations?
        This is not the first time we've had some kind of "germ
warfare."  I mean San Francisco was sprayed with seratia bacteria, as you
know.  We did see black soldiers with syphilis and didn't treat them.
They are having other kinds of experiments.  Whether this is one of them,
I don't know.  But I think one has to look at something from these
shores, or at least entertain that idea to see, if in fact, it is not
there, rather than trying to assume it comes from an underdeveloped
country.
        If you've seen patients with the disease, you see it's
devastating.  If this disease began in any underdeveloped country, there
is no way in this world it could have began there and us not know about
it before it got here.  Of all diseases, this, I mean we even knew about
Cooper Gonorrhea in the Philippines.  And it did not kill anyone.  How in
the world could you have a disease like this that has at this point a
fifty percent mortality in two years.  And hope we can find some
treatment.  Those people who have the disease have a two-year life
expectancy.  This is the most deadly disease we have created that we've
known about in our lifetime.  How could we have possibly have had it in a
underdeveloped country where the average person is malnourished, already
susceptible, and not see any cases until you've had over five hundred in
the United States, and then you go back retroactively and find it in
Zaire?  That makes no sense.
        RC:  Well, I want to thank you very much for your time and all
the information you gave to the KPFA listening audience.  I would like to
do a longer interview with you at some time.  Thank you very, very much.
        WJ:  Thank you.
        RC:  Coming up next on Traffic Jam, we are going to be speaking
with...."

        I'm going to give Doc a chance to change the tapes here.  Okay.
The sound quality was a little fuzzy.  It's actually a little better on
Radio Free America #16.  Once again, if you want to go over this
material, you can obtain Radio Free America #16 from Archives on Audio.
Also, again, this lecture will be on file with Archives on Audio, so you
can obtain a tape of that.
        Now I thought Dr. Jordan, perhaps the sound quality, again, was
not that clear, I thought Dr. Jordan made some very excellent and telling
points.  And frankly, there were some of the same things that had led me
to sniff the air when AIDS first came about or when it was first
announced.
        Again, there have been homosexuals since Biblical times.
Nothing's changed in this regard.  The sex act has not changed.  Why is
this disease appearing in this way at this time.  Again, although AIDS in
the interim has spread since this tape was made, since AIDS has now
spread considerably in the third world, we should note that the first
three third world countries to have serious AIDS infection were Zaire,
Haiti, and Granada, all U.S. sponsored dictatorships.  Also Uganda had
very high incidents of AIDS and we actively supported Idi Amin.  In
fact, Idi Amin was very close to Frank Terpel of the Terpel-Wilson
operation.  Terpel had had a lot to do with training Idi Amin's security
forces.  So there is a very strong American connection there as well.
        Now there are a number of physicians who have come forward and
discussed AIDS as a biological warfare weapon, suggesting that AIDS was
deliberately created by the United States.  The aforementioned Dr. Yakov
Siegel, an East German physician, which now, I guess, a German physician,
which casts a certain amount of aspersions on what he has to say, but his
paper was drawn almost exclusively from Western medical sources.  There
is something like seventy-seven footnotes, and only two of them come from
non-Western sources.
        There is a Dr. Seale from Great Britain.  Dr. John Seale, he is
almost at the opposite end of the political spectrum from Dr. Yakov
Siegel.  He is a far right winger and has close association with the La
Rouche organization, not close association, but has hob-nobbed with
them.  There is also a Dr. Robert Strecker in Southern California.
        Also Dr. Alan Cantwell, which to me sounds like a very bad name
for a doctor, you know, can't well.  But he has written a book called
AIDS and the Doctors of Death, which was published by the Aries Press in
1989.  So if you would like to pursue Dr. Cantwell's information, it is
in book form.
        Also, as I mentioned, Dr. Ann Bailey, a Ugandan Carposi's Sarcoma
expert, had theorized in an article in the New York Times in 1985 that in
fact AIDS, she speculated that it was a genetic engineering accident.  I
don't think it was an accident.  You can pursue the scientific
information from that particular standpoint.
        There is also another interesting theory which has arisen, which
has it that AIDS may very well be somehow connected with Swine Fever.
Now, Cuba was deliberately infected with Swine Fever in order to wipe out
its porcine population and put the island in economic distress.  That was
done by the CIA.  Some physicians from Boston who had been doing research
on the incidents of Swine Fever in American pigs and also pigs which had
found their way, had been slaughtered, butchered, and found their way to
the dinner table.
        It's also been found that Swine Fever Virus often lives on even
after the pork has been cooked.  But it was his theory that somehow Swine
Fever might be connected with AIDS.  I'm not in a position to comment on
that directly.  But it's worth noting, and this is covered also in Radio
Free America #16, that when this doctor began publicizing his findings,
he not only couldn't get a research grant, but he also was discouraged by
the Department of Agriculture from spreading this particular piece of
information.
        Now this was carried in a Jack Anderson column in the San
Francisco Chronicle.  That is in Radio Free America #16.  However, the
same version, the same Jack Anderson column in the Monterey Herald had a
very interesting piece of information which the Chronicle left out.  That
is that the Department of Agriculture were urging these researchers not
to publicize their findings "for national security reasons."  That was
left out of the Anderson column in the San Francisco Chronicle.
        National security generally means defense or defense-related
matters.  So make of that what you will.
        The thought obviously occurs why.  If, in fact, AIDS was
developed as a biological warfare weapon, why?  I think again we go back
to the period immediately following the second World War when we not only
incorporated Unit 731, the Japanese biological warfare research unit, the
most advanced of its kind, basically we took in the war criminals.  We
took in their files.  We did this same thing with the Project Paper Clip
scientists.  We did the same thing with the Gehlen people and the
thousands of SS and Gestapo officers that served under Gehlen.  And they
jumped to CIA.
        It should also be noted that American industrialists and
financiers, many of them, many of the top industrialists and financiers
in this country were openly pro-fascist prior to and during World War
II.  And they didn't change their stripes.  They simply got a little more
PR conscious.
        In fact, in Radio Free America #10 there is a discussion of an
attempted fascist coup in the United States in 1934.  A group of American
industrialists and financiers grouped around the House of Morgan,
primarily the DuPonts, attempted to overthrow President Roosevelt,
because they did not like his New Deal policies, and set up a corporate
state along the lines of Mussolini's fascist state in Italy.
        It is worth noting again that there are very powerful interests
in our country, not only within the national security establishment
proper, but within our American financial and industrial structure who
openly favor fascism.  They liked Hitler.  They like Mussolini.  And they
damn bloody well vowed to do the same thing here at some point.
        And I think to understand why AIDS may have been created, and I
am convinced that it was, I think we need to take a look at some of the
features of fascism in Germany to understand that those features may very
well be being applied in the United States today.
        It should be noted that, and this is covered in a book called The
Pink Triangle by Richard Plant, much of that book, the most important
parts of that book are also accessed in a miscellaneous Archive show,
available from Archives on Audio, called The Pink Triangle.  There was,
as I touched on earlier in the lecture, a very strong gay rights movement
in Weimar Germany.  The chief figure in that gay rights movement was a
fellow named Magnus Herschfeld.  The issue of homosexuality, the issue of
gay rights was used very effectively and very vitriolically by the Nazis
to tar progressive politics, to stigmatize progressive politics in Weimar
Germany.  Their political opponents were seen as being "homo lovers" and
that this was basically a way of tarring the opposition.
        We're seeing much the same kind of tactic being used by the
American far right today.  The Democratic Party, if it favors gay rights,
is termed immoral or licentious.  It's also worth noting that the
religious right is making tremendous propaganda gains by portraying AIDS
as God's visitation upon the immoral.  You know, if you're a drug user or
a homosexual or if you're promiscuous, God has stricken you with this
plague.  It melds very effectively with Christian right wing propaganda.
        It should be noted, too, that AIDS is obviously wiping people out.
It began with black heterosexuals in Zaire and Haiti, homosexuals in the
United States.  It has spread to intravenous drug users who are
out-groups.  All of these groups are out-groups with the U.S. national
security establishment and the far right.  It has spread to American
Indians, Native Indians, Native Americans.  It has spread, of course,
through blood transfusions to hemophiliacs.  Well, hemophiliacs, because
of their disorder, make poor laborers and they cannot go into the
military.  Ultimately the goal of the Third Reich was to eliminate what
they saw as "useless bread gobblers," people who couldn't work or serve in
the military, particularly industrial laborers.  Hemophiliacs cannot do
hard labor because of their situation and obviously cannot go into the
military.
        One of the things that I think we need to look at in connection
with AIDS is basically AIDS as a manifestation of extermination.  A lot
of people have become alarmed about the possibility of over-population in
the world.  It is my belief that AIDS may very well be being deliberately
disseminated in the third world in order to control the population, to
hold down the population, in particular, in Africa.  I don't think one
need be a conspiracy theorist to understand the deep racism which effects
and has always effected the United States.  Mercifully David Duke has
been defeated in Louisiana, according to my understanding.  However, I do
not think we should overlook David Duke or others like him.
        One of the things I am going to be talking about on the radio
program tomorrow is David Duke's probable background with the
intelligence community.  He worked for the State Department, or by his
own account, the Agency for International Development in Laos in the
early 1970s.  That was a front for intelligence activity to a large
extent.  Duke in his campaign is claiming to have flown for Air America
in Laos.  Well, Air America is a CIA airline.
        In the late 1970s as I am going to cover tomorrow, the British
Scotland Yard, the federal police of Great Britain, tried to bar David
Duke from entering Britain in order to promote his Ku Klux Klan
activities.  They had people at airports to see to it that he didn't
land.  Somehow, David Duke was able to get into Great Britain despite the
fact that he was barred by Scotland Yard.  Scotland Yard are pretty good
at what they do.  If Dave Emory or if one of you had wanted to get into
Great Britain and Scotland Yard didn't want you going, then you damn
bloody well would not have gotten in.  David Duke somehow did.
        It's also worth noting that in the early 1980s there was an
abortive Ku Klux Klan and Nazi Party coup on the Caribbean Island of
Dominica.  A group of American and Canadian Klansmen and Neo-Nazis were
arrested, I believe it was just outside of New Orleans, as they were
going to invade the island of Dominica, a very small island, and take it
over.  It's worth noting that these people were trained on a mercenary
training camp run by Frank Camper, a fellow who was an FBI informant the
whole time.  The Grand Jury investigation into this event found that
David Duke was one of the conspirators who arranged this particular
attempted coup.  Yet he was never indicted, suggesting that he had
friends in high places.
        Finally, in the mid 1980s David Duke was working to raise money
for the Contras with a fellow named Dr. Arnold Ochsner.  Dr. Arnold
Ochsner is the son of Dr. Alton Ochsner, an American far right wing
activist with very strong connections to the U.S. intelligence
community.  It was Dr. Alton Ochsner who made a recording of Lee Harvey
Oswald, talking about what a great communist he was, how he was a Castro
sympathizer, and how he had been to the Soviet Union.  This was played
all over the United States the evening of President Kennedy's
assassination to show that the person who had killed Kennedy was a
communist.
        It is my belief that many of the liberals who might have spoken
up about President Kennedy's assassination declined to do so primarily
for one reason.  Basically the liberals, I suspect, thought that if the
American people believed that a popular American president had been
killed by a communist, it could have led to a Third World War.  Kennedy
was very popular with everybody but the military and industrialists.  He
was not popular in the South to a large extent because of his support for
civil rights, but he was a very popular president.
        Dr. Alton Ochsner's son, Arnold Ochsner, raising money for the
Contras with David Duke, obviously that also smacks of intelligence.  Now
I go into David Duke, and I'm going to be covering this at greater length
on the program tomorrow evening, I believe.  I might bump it in favor of
Zodiac material, but we will see.  The thing that's worth noting is that
there is an ominous parallel between David Duke's probable status, either
as an agent or as an agency asset, a U.S. intelligence agency asset of
some kind, and the career of Adolph Hitler.
        Adolph Hitler got his start in government life as an undercover
agent for the political department of the Reichsfare, the German Army
under General Von Lossow.  Hitler was used to infiltrate an abortive
socialist revolution in Bavaria, specifically in Munich.  He pretended to
be one of the Marxists who had staged this abortive revolution.  Then
after the German Army put down the rebellion, he fingered all of the top
conspirators, the leaders of the rebellion, who were then promptly taken
out and shot.
        Hitler's next assignment as an undercover agent for the German
Army was to infiltrate a moribund political party, the German Socialist
Workers Party, which was then renamed the German National Socialist
Workers Party.  Hitler and a number of other undercover agents for the
German Army were infiltrated into it.  The German Nazi Party in its
inception was a front for Reichsfare intelligence, literally a vehicle
for fomenting political reaction in Germany.
        I see an ominous parallel between David Duke and Hitler, not that
Duke himself will ever become President, but I wouldn't absolutely rule
that out in the event of an economic collapse.  But the point is that
David Duke is essentially espousing theories which are very similar to
those and views very similar to those of Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan,
Gerald Ford, and George Bush.
        When Ronald Reagan would make the statement that we've got to
hold down government spending, the fact is that people think that Ronald
Reagan was the greatest government spender of all time.  He spent two and
a half times as much as all of the previous presidents in American
history put together from George Washington through Jimmie Carter.  He
turned the United States from being the world's biggest creditor nation,
which we had been since the end of World War I right up to 1980.
        We were owed more money by other nations than any nation on
earth.  We are now the world's biggest debtor nation.  We owe more money
than all of the third world countries combined.  The savings and loan
industry is gone with the bail out figures to cost roughly a trillion
dollars or maybe even more.  The commercial banks are in very bad shape.
The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation is bankrupt, nine billion
dollars in debt and the bail out bill has just been turned down.  It
should also be noted that the insurance companies are in very bad shape.
Most money market funds are privately insured.  So if the insurance
companies are in bad shape, that means your money isn't safe in a money
market fund either.
        Now it's also worth noting that there is enormous corporate
debt.  The leveraged buy-outs of the 1980s, the go-go financing of the
1980s, has left us with a legacy of enormous corporate debt.  There also
is enormous consumer debt as well.  We should also note that America's
industrial base is being badly eroded.  U.S. corporations are moving
manufacturing facilities abroad to take advantage of cheap labor,
primarily the third world.  And, of course, the Japanese and Europeans
led by Germany are making strong inroads not only into American markets
abroad that had been our particular province, but also, obviously,
domestic markets as well.  Sooner or later the economic chickens are
going to come home to roost.  I expect it is rather sooner than later.
        When Ronald Reagan says we've got to hold down government
spending, people should have rushed the stage and hang the old fart in
his garters, but the fact of the matter is they didn't for the simple
reason that his words were very well understood.  When he talks about
holding down government spending, he is not talking about spending
billions and billions of dollars on trident submarines or nuclear bombers
or missiles.  He's talking about, and if you'll pardon my use of strong
language, "Let's get those s----- and n------ off of welfare so they
don't spend our hard-earned tax dollars."  That was well understood by
Joe and Jane Sixpack.  That's well understood by Reagan's constituency
out in cracker America.  And that's why he's still been able to get away
with that.  That's why George Bush can sound the same theme.
        It's worth noting that poor people, people of color in
particular, are already being scape-goated for America's economic
problems.  If those economic problems get more severe, and I would be
willing to be they get much more severe, then it figures that the degree
of scape-goating also is going to get more severe.  I think we must take
very seriously the possibility of a "final solution to the Negro problem"
in this country in the event of an economic collapse.
        One of the things that made the German people much more willing
to accept the holocaust, the liquidation of the Jews, than they might
have been was the fact that as the war developed and the economic
pressure on the German population developed, the liquidation of the
Jewish population and the Aryanization of their property basically went
to economically benefit the non-Jewish population.  One of the darker
aspects of the holocaust that has not received the publicity it deserves
is that many non-Jewish professionals, non-Jewish doctors, non-Jewish
lawyers, would turn in their Jewish compatriots and then take over their
clientele.  This was very, very common.
        I think as the economic crunch worsens in this country, excess
population groups are going to be gotten rid of.  I think the groups
currently most affected with AIDS are those groups that are going to be
gotten rid of, people of color, Black people in particular, homosexuals,
intravenous drug users, Native Americans, and poor people in general.  I
think in the third world, the Black population faces a very, very serious
threat from the United States and from the national security
establishment.
        It should also be noted that in addition to being a vehicle of
liquidation, and it is my belief that it is being deliberately promoted
in that regard and used in that way, AIDS itself has a very, very
powerful psychological component.  Wilhelm Reich, a very skilled though
very controversial psychologist, published a book called The Mass
Psychology of Fascism in which he theorized, he stated that there was a
very strong connection between the degree of sexual repression in a
society and that society's inclination to fascism.  Certainly AIDS with
its deadliness makes sex a threat.  It is an intimidating factor vis a vis
sex and in that regard, I think, it is going to lead to more sexual
repression.  If Reich's theories are correct, that is going to propel
people in the direction of fascism.
        I would also note, too, that there is a very strong connection
between male aggressive behavior and sexual deprivation.  The males of
all species become more aggressive during mating season.  The male of the
human species does not have a mating season, but when, and this is an
established fact, when there are higher levels of testosterone in males,
they become as a rule more aggressive.  It's common knowledge in the
military, basically, that when soldiers go on leave, either they get laid
or they get into a fight.  This is very well established.
        But if you can set up a society of economically deprived, horny
males running around, you are going to have a war.  I think ultimately
this benefits the military establishment in this country.  I'm afraid
that if things continue as they are with the spread of AIDS, the threat
it presents to having sex, and with the growth of the right wing, with
all of its strictures against having sexual relations, that we are going
to have a society full of damn celibates from hell straining at the leash
in anticipation of a blood meal.  That's basically what we face.  That is
in my opinion one of the things they are working toward.
        I also think, and this is a matter of established record, that
AIDS is being used to justify the restriction of civil liberties,
basically your right to privacy.  When people can go into your veins and
your blood stream, you have no privacy whatsoever.  It should also be
noted at least for the time being that AIDS is being dealt with in a
relatively intelligent fashion.  People are not being locked up because
of AIDS.  In the 1980s, however, there was a lot of propaganda being
generated by the far right and elements associated with the military that
AIDS could be casually transmitted and this meant that people who had
AIDS or who were at high risk for AIDS should be put into concentration
camps, basically, or otherwise incarcerated.
        I'm going to play for you a section of a tape from Radio Free
America #16.  You are going to hear an article from February 9, 1986 in
which people from the American far right with strong connections not only
to the military, but to the biological warfare research are proposing
basically a "Star of David" concept, in other words, the yellow star that
Jews had to wear.  But basically people at high risk for AIDS or people
who were HIV positive had to be incarcerated.  This represented a
significant strategic engine, at least at the time, for justifying the
restriction of civil liberties and the implementation of fascism:

        Dave Emory (DE):  "Okay, now one of the reasons that AIDS is such
a very, very important subject to study, in particular, the possibility
that it may have been manufactured by our own government and is being
deliberately used for whatever reason, is that in order to combat, aside
from the basic issue of the fact that many, many people are being killed
and sickened by this disease, in order to prevent the spread of AIDS a
number of far right wing sources, various reactionary elements, have
proposed a number of very draconian measures in the recently much
publicized primary elections at the La Rouche organization.  The La
Rouchies centered their campaign in considerable measure on confining
people who were potentially at risk for AIDS.  I guess they are proposing
quarantining AIDS patients.
        The religious right, the Jerry Falwells, the Moral Majority, and
so forth, have been very, very active in proposing anti-gay legislation
and suggesting that basically AIDS is the visitation of the Lord on
sinners and sodomizers and fornicators and so forth.  The point is that
AIDS is being used as a major political tool by the far right in this
country.  Perhaps the most dramatic and potentially alarming use of AIDS
by the far right or potential use of AIDS by the far right was covered in
the San Francisco Sunday Examiner on February 9, 1986.  This is an
article headlined, 'Extreme Proposal by AIDS Researcher.'  It's by David
L. Kirp.  It is a special to the Examiner.  It reads as follows:"

        Examiner Article (EA):  "The military is seriously considering
spending $12.5 million to fund a study aimed at proving AIDS is casually
transmitted and at devising methods to control the disease that appear to
be Constitutionally questionable.  The proposal which contradicts
established scientific data on AIDS contemplates forbidding association
between service men and members of high risk groups and quarantining
those who have been exposed to AIDS."

        DE:  "Now it doesn't say what 'exposed to AIDS,' whether that
means basically someone who tests positive for antibodies to the HTLV3 or
whether someone has actually contracted the disease.  Because a lot of
people, as pointed out, have antibodies to the HTLV3 virus and do not
have AIDS.  Continuing with the article:"

        EA:  "'Extreme public health measures' may be necessary says the
proposal by San Francisco based scientists seeking funding for the
study.  'Some of these measures would be in direct conflict with the
Constitution,' the researchers concede.  The drastic measures are not
only spelled out in the proposal sent to the military, but a memo
circulated among those working on the project mentions, 'mandatory and
overt identification of AIDS victims,' however loathsome a Star of David
concept.  The reference is to the symbol Nazis used to publicly identify
Jews.
        Initiators of the proposal are two scientific research
organizations with a long history of work for the military.  One has
conducted biological and chemical warfare research.  They are backed by a
stellar list of collaborators, including scholars of the Hoover
Institution of Stanford University, a conservative think-tank that lists
President Reagan as an Honorary Fellow, and SRI [Stanford Research
Institute] International of Menlo Park.
        The proposal's premise runs counter to overwhelming scientific
opinion on Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome by asserting that the
fatal disease will be proven communicable by touch or even by close
proximity to people with AIDS.  It suggests the disease will be proven
transmissible through tears, saliva, feces, urine, or sweat, and that
infection can follow a sneeze or cough, a mosquito bite or something as
simple as touching a doorknob or toilet handle used by someone with the
disease."

        DE:  "I would interrupt here that in much of the other literature
it is pointed out that although mosquitoes communicate malaria in places
like Africa, there is no indication that insects can communicate this
disease.  Continuing with the article:"

        EA:  "It projects a catastrophic epidemic within a decade.
Infection of 10% of the population of the United States and 68.2% of the
military.  A copy of the proposal marked confidential by its authors was
obtained by the Examiner.  It says, 'Consistent with the need to be
conservative in avoiding undue alarm until all the facts are in, the
prevalence of published and express medical opinion is that AIDS
infection cannot occur through casual transmission of the virus.
However, the non-medical public and an increasing number of medical
scientists are fearful that AIDS may be spread through various forms of
casual contact.  Because it is a slow virus and the evidence is that the
incubation period is dosage related, illness may not become manifest
until many years after casual infection occurs.  It can therefore be
argued that AIDS cases resulting from low dosage casual contact infection
are not yet appearing on a widespread basis, but that many cases could
surface in the years ahead.'
        Both the premise and research agenda of the proposal, which has
passed an initial screening by the U.S. Army's Medical Research and
Development Command at Fort Detrick, Maryland, drew strong criticism from
public health officials, leading medical researchers, and politicians
with expertise on AIDS."

        DE:  "Of course we know that that is now the National Cancer
Institute, which discovered the AIDS virus.  Skipping down in the article:"

        EA:  "The initiators of the proposal are AIMS, Advanced
Investigation of Medical Science Group, and the Institute for Cancer
Research, both housed at the Pacific Prebyterian Medical Center.  Both
have done research for the military previously.  Since 1962, the AIMS
Group has done classified work on biological and chemical warfare.
        Two of the senior Hoover Institution scholars who will do
economic and political analyses for the study are Rita Ricardo-Campbell,
who was a leading contender to succeed Margaret Heckler as Secretary of
Health and Human Services last year, and Richard Star, a specialist on
the Soviet Union who headed America's delegation to the mutual and
balanced force reduction talks between 1981 and 1983.  Glen Campbell,
Director of the Hoover Institution and Ricardo-Campbell's husband, denies
that the Institution is formally involved with the project."

        DE:  "So there are a couple of things to contemplate here.  Well,
there are a lot of things to contemplate here in connection with this
article.  Obviously, the fact that the military, and this is primarily a
military-associated group of people here, and also, incidentally, people
very close to the Reagan administration, the links between the Hoover
Institute and the Reagan administration are very close and of long
standing, but basically this group is saying, and whether they know
something we don't or whether it is being done for psychological reasons,
that AIDS may very well be casually transmitted.  They are proposing
essentially tossing the Constitution down the drain in order to deal with
this.  Now, Nip is going to embellish on this in just a second.  But one
of the things to take note of here, of course, aside from the Fort
Detrick connection, which is front and center with regard to AIDS, it's
worth noting that the Reagan administration has been very, very quick to
propose restrictions on our civil liberties, and obviously many of them
unconstitutional.
        It's worth thinking about the possibility that if AIDS has been
deliberately spread by our government, whether perhaps a restriction of
the Constitution was one of the things they had in mind as part of this
program.  Again, the Hoover Institute, Army's Medical Research and
Development Command at Fort Detrick, these two groups, the Pacific
Presbyterian Medical Center and AIMS, both involved with chemical and
biological warfare research for the Army, that and the Hoover Institute
very close to Ronald Reagan, proposing, basically, chucking the
Constitution in order to deal with AIDS."

        Nip Tuck (NT):  "Yeah, exactly.  The point that I wanted to make,
Dave, is basically made.  But let me embellish it a little bit.  What we
have here is a direct circuit of cause and effect or apparently a direct
circuit of cause and effect, directly through the military from one end
to the other.
        We talked earlier, of course, about all the biological warfare
being under the military.  What we have in this case is a plan that has
been essentially put forward by military bacteriological contractors, has
been preliminarily approved by the military's bacteriological and
chemical research center, which is housed in the same building with the
National Cancer Institute, which presumably has the cutting edge of
medical information on hand, which at this point suggests that everything
that these people are saying is incorrect.  So not only do we have these
military people, but then we have the plan proposed by a couple of Hoover
Fellows, one of whom is an expert in Soviet affairs, which one has to
wonder what this man is doing."

        DE:  "And also who is involved in arms talks.  I mean he was one
of our delegates to Strategic Arms Limitations Talks."


        NT:  "Indeed.  So, what we have here is a very strange cycle
coming, emanating from and returning directly to the military.  One has
to ask, in this case, if we have supposedly, as we are constantly being
told, the best scientists in the country working on this, and things of
this nature.  But, basically, from the most absolute fundamental point of
view, what is the military doing involved with AIDS and the prevention of
the spread of AIDS and the quarantining of AIDS victims without any kind
of Congressional or even Executive initiative, at least overt Executive
initiative whatsoever.  It is very bizarre and very fishy."

        DE:  "And, again, consider that this one fellow, Richard Star, is
not only an expert on the Soviet Union, but one of our representatives to
Strategic Arms Limitation Talks.  What intersection could there be
between AIDS and strategic arms, something we should think about perhaps."

        NT:  "Yes, and let's think about, again, self-admittedly, they
said the 'Star of David concept.'  And again, remember that not only in
Germany were the Jews forced to go around with yellow Stars of David
pinned to their clothes, but the gays wore pink triangles and were
separated out.  Many of them, hundreds of thousands, in fact, died
alongside the Jews and the Slavs and the Gypsies and the other groups,
intellectuals, and communists, in the extermination camps.  So there are
certain people who have had the gays on their agenda for some time."

        DE:  "It's worth noting that the idea of getting rid of various
groups who were in the way was made a lot easier, a lot more palatable
for the German public, those who were aware of it, by the fact that gays
who were traditionally an outcast group were the first to go.  It made it
much easier to accept the later exterminations on the part of the Nazis.
It's a tactic the Nazis refer to as salami tactic, literally just like
slicing a sausage.  Before you know it, the whole thing is gone.  That is
something to think about."

        All right, that information hopefully spoke for itself.  One of
the reasons I allowed the interpolative discussion afterward to allow
people to think about the cause and effect from the military to the
military.  We see the same people implicated and the same elements
implicated in these drastic proposals for reducing civil liberties as
loom in the background, in my opinion, of the creation of AIDS itself.
Now for the time being anyway, draconian measures like this have been
shunted aside, have been successfully defeated by progressive political
activists and by the public as a whole.  But if my theories concerning
AIDS are correct, who knows what else they have in mind.  It may be that
a more casually communicable type of AIDS will, if not be created, will
be publicized or propagandized and that this will serve as a pretext for
confining people in the future.
        It's worth noting too the reaction of the population to neighbors
who have AIDS.  There have been a number of well publicized cases in
which children with AIDS were horribly abused by their neighbors.  I
remember reading about a little boy, I believe it was in Pinole or
somewhere in Contra Costa County.  He had AIDS and his neighbors kept
trying to drive the family out of the neighborhood.  They would break his
toys.  They would steal his tricycle.  That's a pretty cruel thing to do
to a kid with AIDS.  Yet, the disease has a capacity to panic people that
is worth noting as a strategic device or as a possible tool of
psychological warfare.
        There was a well publicized case in Florida where a little boy
with AIDS was horribly oppressed by his neighbors.  The family had their
home burned down.  I think this is indicative of the power of this
disease, the psychological power and its ability to motivate people in a
reactionary or fascistic direction.  One of the things that I see very
possibly is that this might be being deliberately manipulated in that
regard.
        Basically that concludes the lecture.  What we are going to do
now is take a break.  Then for the rest of the evening, I am going to
take your questions.

                              Part III

        There are a couple of points that I forgot to mention that I will
bring up briefly.  I wanted to reiterate that in the Dr. Jordan talk you
heard that San Francisco, New York, and Los Angeles were the main areas
of infection among the gay population.  Those, not coincidentally in my
opinion, are the areas where Dr. Wolf Szmuness was administering the
Hepatitis B trial vaccine program.  Again, you can read about AIDS and
the Doctors of Death.  That is the title of a book by Dr. Alan Cantwell,
published by Aries Publishers, 1989.
        Also I wanted to mention that it has been theorized by Dr.
Strecker that AIDS was spread in Africa through the Small Pox vaccination
program conducted by the World Health Organization, which has very strong
links with Fort Detrick and the National Cancer Institute.  So those are
a couple of details to remember under the circumstances.
        Now, once again I want to reiterate that the medical and
scientific evidence is not my long suit.  It would be quite pretentious
and intellectually dishonest for me to discuss that past a point.  I will
do the best I can.
        I also want to emphasize that if you want to ask a general
questions about the subject material that I deal with, your questions
needn't be confined to AIDS, under the circumstances.

        Question (Q):  I have a two-tiered question.  One is I've read
the series of articles that Covert Action Information Bulletin did on
AIDS.  They talked about the five different theories on the origin.  They
didn't fully discount all of them having something to do with AIDS.  They
also talked about the African Swine Fever Virus.  They said that in their
investigation, at least eighty percent of people with AIDS tested
positive for the African Swine Fever Virus.  Do you believe that it is
possible that this is what you talk about as being cross-vectoring?  And
also, a follow up question is, have you read or in your investigations,
have you seen anything suggesting that a vaccine or solution to AIDS
might be in existence somewhere?

        Answer (A):  Yes, as a matter of fact, there was an article, I
believe it was in the Alta Mata Star, to answer your last question
first.  I neglected to mention this during the lecture.  But, it is in
Radio Free America Program !6 that you can get from Archives on Audio or
from Paul over here, that the Army's Institute of Infectious Diseases
mentioned that they had been testing for a vaccine for AIDS or a cure for
AIDS.  When asked if they had any success, the doctor whose name I've
forgotten, I think it was Dr. Driscoll but I may be wrong, he had an
interesting and ambiguous response.  He said that laboratory test results
don't always pan out when applied in the general population.  So they
certainly were looking for it as far back as 1986, possibly with some
success.
        Now about the African Swine Fever theory, that may very well be.
If that is correct, that may very well be one of the cross-vectors that's
involved.  As I mentioned, a couple of physicians from Boston who had
been doing research into the Swine Fever connection and who had wanted to
be funded were told by the Department of Agriculture to cool it, not to
publicize this "for reasons of national security."  So it certainly
suggests at least the possibility.
        I personally wasn't that impressed with the covert action
series.  They touched on some good information, but I also felt they
pulled their punches.  I've forgotten the name of one of the authors.  It
was a fellow who writes for the New York Native, a New York daily
newspaper.  He called me up right after he heard about my Radio Free
America #16 show.  Frankly, I thought he was something of a fool.  I
wasn't real impressed.  But he had a lot to do with that series.

        Q:  One more question and that is, there is presently in South
and Central America a cholera epidemic.  Do you think this might be
related to biological warfare?

        A:  It's possible.  I really don't know.

        Q:  Yeah, Dave, I was wondering about, they have been saying on
certain media sources have been talking about making AIDS a maintainable
disease like diabetes, if you will.  You know, you take an insulin shot
to maintain it.  I was wondering what you thought about that.

        A:  It's a possibility.  Again, I'm not a doctor or a biologist
or a geneticist.  So it's a possibility.  They certainly have made some
progress in some areas with AIDS.  Although, I'm told by people that I
consider knowledgeable that the drug AZT is really a whammy.  AZT will
give you AIDS.  It does attack the HIV, but because the protein code on
the HIV is very similar to the amino acid make-up of the T-cell
lymphocytes, which are the main things which appear to be attacked by Aat
when a virus mutates, it takes on the characteristics of already
pre-existing viruses?  And, is it true that the AIDS virus does not
necessarily relate to or compare with other existing viruses?

        A:  I really don't know that much about the way in which viruses
mutate from a technical standpoint, nor can I comment again on the AIDS
virus and the way it mutates.  I have not heard that viruses mutate in
the same way, or take on the characteristics of other viruses.  Now I
have been told by people skilled in virology, which by the way is not
nearly the exact science it's been portrayed.  You can show the same
virus to two different virologists.  They will agree on the make-up of
the genome, but they will disagree on the interpretation of where it
comes from.
        But the thing that I've been told is that most viruses, many
viruses anyway, no most viruses eventually adapt in such a way as they
become symbiotic with their host.  In other words, they mutate in such a
way as they don't sicken the host, which obviously benefits the host and
they mutate in such a way as the host's immune system does not,
therefore, attack the virus.  So it's mutually beneficial.  But that is
as much as I know.          Again, at the risk of seeming a little
repetitive, not being a physician or a microbiologist or a geneticist, my
ability to respond to these questions intelligently is limited.  What I
have done is to present what I believe is historical and political
evidence pointing very strongly to AIDS as a biological warfare weapon
and to recommend some of the medical people who have come forward with
these theories.  The one thing that I do feel reasonably intelligent
talking about, of course, is the epidemiology because I think that
involves a good deal of common sense.  But my feeling is that it is up to
the medical and scientific community to carry the search on past this point.

        Q:  Has Dr. Cantwell received any repercussions since?

        A:  I don't know about Cantwell.  I do know that Dr. Robert
Strecker was quite shaken when his brother mysteriously died who had been
doing the research with him.  I got a call from Strecker once.  He had
heard about my work and I wasn't particularly impressed with the guy.  He
is an extreme right winger.  But on the other hand, I think that the fear
of God got put in him, because his brother, who I believe his name was
John, had been working on the research with him.  All of a sudden he had
died very suddenly.


        Q:  This is a somewhat broad, maybe naive question that seems to
come up when I lay all this stuff on people who I've managed to trap.

        A:  You'll get a lot of broad, naive questions when you try to
lay this stuff on people.

        Q:  Well, it's one that I have difficulty answering.  Why would
the security establishment go to all this trouble to "waste a bunch of
losers?"

        A:  Well, you've just answered your own question.  I tried to
address that as best I could in the final portion of the talk.  These
people are considered out-groups.  In a shrinking economy, I believe an
economy that is going to be completely devastated before much longer,
there aren't going to be enough goodies to go around.  This country
operates on the law of supply and demand.  Supply and demand must be kept
in line.  If there are too many workers for the available jobs and if
there are not enough goodies for the people that want them, then supply
and demand will be brought in line.  We will have fewer workers to fit
the jobs and we will have fewer people competing for the goodies, if it
gets to be too much of a strain.  It will also by reducing the population
reduce the strain on the society as a whole.  I think the basic
motivations in my opinion for eliminating people in this country are the
same as the motivations for eliminating similar groups in Europe under
the fascist period.  I think you could ask the same question of Hitler.
Why would Hitler go to all this trouble to eliminate "losers?"  Precisely
because the people that are viewed as losers by our national security
establishment, people of color, gays, intravenous drug users,
hemophiliacs, Native Americans, they are viewed as losers.  I'm not
saying they are losers, far from it.  But they are viewed that way by the
far right and they want to get rid of them for exactly that reason.  The
Nazis had a concept that was called "useless bread gobblers."  And that
is the real answer.

        Q:  I think we can all find some reason why we think that AIDS
has a suspicious or questionable origin.  I'm a scientist by trade.
Sometimes we do things to confuse the competition as far as programming,
rewrite, obfuscated code that nobody can understand except us, or if it
is electronics, we do things in weird sort of ways so that nobody can
understand.  But one thing in common is that when youevery case of AIDS
in the United States, if it wasn't somebody who got infected by
intravenous means as in a blood transfusion was always traced back to
drug usage, that actually certain combinations of drugs that people used
to have a good time with the virus in their system or some other type of
microorganism that actually triggers HIV.  Do you have any comment on that?

        A:  I am familiar with Duesburg's theories up to a point.  He is
a researcher up at the University of California at Berkeley.  I am not in
a position, again, to comment critically or in an intelligent fashion on
scientific and medical evidence past a point.  But one of the things that
makes me skeptical, at least to a certain extent, of his claims is that
if recreational drugs in combination with certain other organisms are
involved in AIDS, how come American Indians are getting it?  There is
drug usage on Native American reservations.  It should also be noted that
many Native American cultures are also far more tolerant of homosexuality
than the culture as a whole.  But, on the other hand, with the exception
of alcohol and perhaps some other drugs, I would tend to think that the
drug usage on Native American reservations would be very different than
the rest of the population.  Beyond that, how about the results in the
Third World.  I wonder whether Duesburg's study really takes into account
the lifestyle, the habits of people in Haiti or in Africa or other places
in the Third World.  For that reason, I'm skeptical.  Because at this
point there are enough people who have AIDS all around the world that
would come from very different cultures and consequently would have very
different lifestyles that at least from my position as a relative naive,
I would tend to be skeptical of that.

        Q:  Well, what he says is that AIDS in Africa is a far cry
different than AIDS in the United States.  For instance, one thing that
he says is that in Zaire, for example, where AIDS is primarily
transmitted heterosexually that it doesn't kill at the same rate.  There
a person may have the virus and may live twenty-five or thirty years.  In
the meantime the average African in that area also have other parasitic
organisms in their system that would kill the average person in Western
society.  But they seem to live quite normally with this in their system.

        A:  Well, again, I can't comment on this stuff from an expert
standpoint as I've already indicated.  But I would be very skeptical of
Duesburg's claim that people can live twenty-five or thirty years because
we haven't known about this disease that long, just as a matter of fact.

        Q:  I was wondering if in all your studies, have you ever found
reason to believe that declassified information may be used as a method
of spreading disinformation among people willing to seek out this kind of
thing?

        A:  That has always been the case.  The national security
establishment of this country always cloaks its secrets relatively
effectively.  I'm glad you brought that up.  That's one of the reasons
that I am very leery about touching a lot of the scientific and medical
evidence because there are a lot of contradictory theories around, many
of them, I suspect, disinformation efforts by the national security
establishment.  I, myself, was talking about AIDS.  I remember speaking
many times with the late Mae Brussel in the early 1980s, saying that we
were convinced that AIDS whatever it was, this mysterious infection,
which first turned up in American homosexuals was some sort of biological
warfare weapon.  That's why the historical evidence, the development of
things from a historical and political standpoint is what I focus on.
There is, for example, no ambiguity about the National Cancer Institute
having its Frederick research facility run by Litton Biomedics or that in
1971 it, that is to say Fort Detrick, was turned over to the National
Cancer Institute.  Or that in 1969 we have the House Appropriations
Subcommittee hearings for defense budget for fiscal 1970, which again
Paul has a copy of.  So that's why I stick with that kind of
information.  That is primarily my long suit.  I am very suspicious of a
lot of the scientific and medical information that has been generated
about AIDS, including the notion after six years of study that oh yeah,
we've found this case in Britain in 1959.  But, it's a good point.  I'm
glad you brought it up.

        Q:  I want to thank you for this good information.  I have two
questions.  The first one is regarding the American Red Cross and where
you see them in all of this when the unthe inoculation against biological
warfare is a classic example of what I call food for thought and grounds
for further research.  Often inoculation programs are used to vector
people, in response to an earlier question.  So it's something to think
about, but again I can't give you a hard answer.

        Q:  Thank you.

        A:  You're welcome.

        Q:  Hi.  I was wondering with Magic Johnson getting HIV positive
and your speculation back in 1983 or 1984 with the studies of how to make
the disease more communicable, and I'm wondering if this might be a
higher consciousness to get the public's awareness towards it as
something that is highly communicable.

        A:  I really can't say.  Obviously I don't know Magic Johnson.
The accounts that have appeared in the press, both for Magic Johnson and
people who claim to have known him well, apparently he was quite the
ladies' man.  As the Lakers would go on the road, apparently he had a lot
of one night stands.  He was very sexually prolific in this regard.  By
his own account, he just was careless.  So I don't really know if one
could consider there to be a conspiratorialogical aspect to Magic
Johnson's infection.  Certainly it is publicizing the disease.  Certainly
it is scaring heterosexuals.  Heterosexuals started flocking to get
tested for HIV in a big, big way.  One of the things that I've wondered
about, too, this is something of an aside, when you go to get tested for
HIV, they take blood.  They stick something into you.  If the government
knows who you are and doesn't like you and their records are extensive,
then they could also either vector you at that point or they could say
you were HIV positive when in fact you weren't.  That has a very
devastating psychological effect and professional effect on many people.
It's very difficult to get medical insurance or increasingly difficult to
get medical insurance if you are HIV positive.  So I wonder.  I wonder
whether the testing could in fact be used to spread the disease or nail
certain individuals.

        Q:  Okay.  I had two other questions.  Are you familiar with
General Prouty back in the 1960s.

        A:  Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty.  Yes, he was in charge of Special
Operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the early 1960s.  He also was
Air Force Focal Point Officer for quite some time.  That is to say he was
the Air Force Officer, and again he was a Colonel, who was the liaison
between the CIA and the Air Force for CIA covert operations requiring air
units.  He did some excellent work on the Kennedy assassination.  He also
wrote one of the best books on the CIA, called The Secret Team:  The CIA
and Its Allies in Control of the World.
        I have accessed Prouty's material in a number of Archive shows,
primarily the Guns of November and Addenda.  He did some excellent work
in the 1960s and early 1970s.  On the other hand, he is sort of thrown
his lot in with the space aliens, so to speak.  He is on the Liberty
Lobby's twenty-four member populist action committee.  His work has gone
down hill, in my opinion.

        Q:  I was looking to see how reliable his writings were.

        A:  His earlier work is reliable and his views on the Kennedy
assassination and the Vietnam war.  Prouty is someone I would rely on
when he is talking, these days he is not that reliable.  In the old days
he had done excellent work.  But when he is talking about his own
experiences in the military I think he can be discredible, regardless of
his affiliation with Liberty Lobby, which is Neo-Nazi and which I have no
use for.

        Q:  And one last question.  Back in the 1960s, it would be about
the time I was one year old, there was an experiment done on some San
Francisco protesters with the family name of Nevin.  I was wondering if
you know anything about it.

        A:  Nevins.  That is the name of the people, they were not in San
Francisco, but that is the name of the fellow at Stanford whose father
died from the Seratia experiments in which the barge was towed around San
Francisco Bay in 1950.
        By the way, I should note that in Dr. Jordan's speech or in his
talk, he confused two biological warfare experiments:  One, the Seratia
in San Francisco in which a barge was towed around spewing this
microorganism into the wind in San Francisco harbor; and two, the test on
the New York City subway system because in 1950 San Franciso didn't have
a subway.  So he just basically fused a synapse on that.  But that is the
experiment in which Mr. Nevins died.

        Q:  Thank you.

        A:  Okay.

        Q:  If what you say is true, then can't the people who are
responsible for this simply bring two more pieces of genetic material
together and create some other disease and kill everybody even if AIDS
was cured?

        A:  That is a good question and that is my fear.  That is exactly
why I came forward with Radio Free America #16 and this whole line of
inquiry.  Because my feeling is there are things a lot worse than AIDS
that have probably been created.  I can't prove it.  But it wouldn't
surprise me.  There has been discussion in military ciro were permitted
to participate in that.

        Q:  May I ask one last question?

        A:  Sure.

        Q:  The latest issue of Rolling Stone talks about Bangkok as a
sex center for Asia.  They talk about how one out of every fifty people
in Thailand is a "sex worker" and how many of them are coming down with
HIV and that hundreds of thousands of Japanese businessmen are visiting
Thailand as a sexual vacation.  Could this be part of the plan to get rid
of Japanese competition?

        A.  I doubt it.  I doubt it very seriously.  It might be a
windfall.  But the thing is the Japanese big capitol at this point is
international.  For example, people are aware of the damage being done to
the American automobile industry by Japanese competition.   But there is
massive involvement by the big three auto makers in Japanese automobile
production.
        The Mazda, for example, is manufactured by the Toyo Kogyo Company
which is a machine tool company which is owned by the Ford Motor Company,
the controlling interest anyway.  When you buy a Mazda, you are buying a
Ford.  Big capitol has always been more or less international.  It is
much more so today.
        One of the reasons why I did the programs Uncle Sam and the
Swastika, Uncle Sam and El Duche, and the program about Japanese fascism,
Radio Free America #10, is to point out these international links of big
capitol.  I would tend to think that infecting Bangkok with AIDS in order
to reduce the Japanese competition would not have much to do with it.  At
this point, the Japanese have the United States by the short hairs.
They're supporting our debt.  If we take any action against the Japanese,
they are just going to stop supporting our debt, which also would be
mutually destructive for them, because then they are not going to be able
to market their products in the United States.  So I would doubt that
under the circumstances.

        Q:  I'm wondering what you know about the concentration camps
that have been built in the United States and what organization Global
2000 has to do with this AIDS epidemic.

        A:  I don't know anything about Global 2000.  As I recall that is
the organization founded by Sid Bass.  I'm not absolutely positive.  I
can't identify Global 2000.  Is that the environmental organization
that's involved with this biosphere?

        Q:  One of their programs is to reduce the population of the
earth drastically.

        A:  Well, I'm not familiar with the organization.  So I cannot
actually give you a definitive answer to that.  But as far as
concentration camps in the United States, that has been a contingency
plan that has been set up for a long time.  One of the things that came
out during the Nixon administration was that there was a plan afoot by
far right wing activists in the military and intelligence community to
set up a provocation at the Republican Convention in San Diego, blow it
up and thereby probably assassinate Richard Nixon in order to serve as a
pretext for cancelling the elections and interning people in camps.
        During the Iran/Contra scandal, one of the most controversial
aspects that came out was the so called Rex 84 or Operation Night Train
Martial Law Contingency Plan in which some twenty million people were to
be interned in concentration camps.  This in turn was based on a plan to
intern upwards of twenty million Black people in the event of an uprising
by so called Black militants in the 1960s and 1970s.  So these plans are
very real.
        There has also been a lot of discussion about using closed
military bases to house "drug offenders" who then would be put to work in
work camps.  They are talking about, again, upwards of twenty million
under the circumstances.  These "drug offenders" would work for private
corporations who would maintain these camps.  In turn, the corporations
would get the profits from their labor as long as they continued to fund
the establishment of other institutions.
        Radio Free America #32 has a good discussion of Operation Night
Train.  There is material available from the Christic Institute about
that.  You can read about it also in a number of different publications.
I would recommend Covert Action Information Bulletin #33.  There is a
very fine article in there called FEMA and the National Security
Council.  It is by a woman named Diana Reynolds.  That will go into that
and the development of this to a considerable extent.  There is also
discussion in Radio Free America #23 about the early martial law
contingency plans under Richard Nixon.  That, in turn, if you can find
the book, it draws on the book The Glass House Tapes, published in soft
cover by the Avon Press, copyright 1973.  That's put out by the Citizens
Research and Investigating Commission.  That will give you some hard
information about that.

        Q:  Thanks.  I think it was the last few days.  The Cuban
Government is actually locking up people who are testing positive for HIV
virus.  As soon as anyone becomes of an age where they are sexually active
are immediately incarcerated for this if they are tested and found
positive.  They are immediately incarcerated in this semi-fancy
sanitariums.  The Cuban Government is bragging about how well this program
is working on curbing the proliferation of AIDS in their country.  I was
wondering if maybe you thought that we are watching them closely or our
government is watching them closely.

        A:  There has been a proposal.  In fact, one of the addenda to
Radio Free America #16 talks about, I believe it was Sweden's proposal
for AIDS, which was to take all AIDS patients and quarantine them on an
island, basically in a huge concentration camp, which is what is being
done in Sweden.  It wouldn't surprise me.  It wouldn't surprise me.  And
again, the article from the Sunday Examiner Chronicle from February 9,
1986 with which I concluded the lecture this evening, the tape of the
reading of that article, I think certainly points in that direction.

        Q:  All right, David, I have like two questions regarding money,
the thing that seems to make all this go.  One is how do you explain the
amount of money, well there has been quite a bit that's been going into
AIDS research if it's something which is caused by the government and
there's all that money in [unclear] government agency?

        A:  Well, as I said earlier, I think that one of the possible
goals of AIDS was to serve as a pretext for basically a gene race, much
like the arms race.  Certainly biotechnology and research into it has
been greatly spurred by the advent of AIDS, I believe the invention of
AIDS.  One of the things I find amusing about ACT UP and some of the more
militant gay groups who are constantly talking about "We want more
government funding for AIDS" is that I think there has been a lot of
government funding for AIDS, specifically to make it.  And I think they
may find that if the government begins funding AIDS even more there will
be fewer of them around.

        Q:  That's the answer to the second part.

        A:  Okay.

        Q:  Hi.  I was wondering if you have any information on the
organization called Porack.

        A:  I'm not familiar with it.

        Q:  Okay.  This is the police officers' standard training that
was developed by the FBI in the early 1971 - 1972 and then the formation
of intelligence officers throughout the United States within the police
departments and the funds connected to that.

        A:  The Nixon administration specifically using the Law
Enforcement Assistance Administration was very active in promoting that
sort of thing.  There have been discussions.  The aforementioned Glass
House Tapes talks about it.  And there has been a fair amount of
publicity about that, about really the militarization of domestic police.

        Q:  Yeah, I noticed also with the special units, we know them as
SWAT teams and stuff like that, originally when those officers responded
to domestic situations, they responded in full dress uniform.  As
recently as in the last couple of months, these NOW teams respond in
military fatigues at all times and they wear the hooded masks.  Can you
respond to that?

        A:  I think basically the old expression, what goes around, comes
around, which is Emory's first principle, has a lot to do with that.
Ultimately, as the economy collapses and as the social dislocation
resulting from that grows, I think basically there is going to be a need
to keep civil order to a greater extent.  The trend of the militarization
of domestic police which began during the anti-war movement, the
anti-Vietnam war movement, is accelerating at this point.
        It is my feeling, for example, I've done a lot of work on gun
control and there is a very strong CIA connection to gun control,
specifically, the leading Hand Gun Control, Incorporated and the other
supposedly competing organization.  Hand Gun Control, Incorporated was
founded by William O. Wells, a newly retired "former" CIA agent, who
himself owns two pistols and a sharps bore shard rifle.  He has been
greatly assisted in his efforts by William Colby, former CIA Director.
Wells is very active with the supposedly competing organization as well.
William Colby is real big on gun control.  He says he learned about the
dangers of hand guns while serving with the CIA.  William Colby was
Director of the Phoenix Program for quite some time in which by
conservative estimates some forty thousand Vietnamese were dispatched,
mostly using silenced twenty-two and twenty-five caliber automatics.  So
it doesn't surprise me that he would learn about the dangers of hand guns
under the circumstances.
        I, myself, am opposed to gun control.  I see many of these lone
nuts going off and shooting.  I've discussed on my program the fellow who
went off in Colene, Texas.  A postal worker went off and shot a female
former supervisor.  There was another postal worker who went off.
        I've done a lot of work on what I call Purdy's last stand.
Patrick Purdy, the follow who killed those students, the young Asian
students at the Cleveland Elementary School in Stockton.  Purdy had Aryan
Nations literature on him at the time of an earlier arrest.  He had Aryan
Nations graffiti on his weapons, clothing, and in his room.  He had
previously been a member of the Moonies.  A teacher from the Cleveland
Elementary School who was going to testify in front of the California
Assembly received a threatening letter with a swastika letterhead.  It
should also be noted that the spokesperson for the Stockton School
District who handled the media was up until 1985 the spokesperson for the
United States Army Western Command.
        So I think that the militarization of the police, toposing the
[unclear] advances in genetic engineering, etc.  That virus is, according
to my sources, virtually identical to the HIV II with the exception that
a piece of genetic material called a stop codon has been introduced right
in the middle of one gene.  That is the smoking gene in his opinion.

        Q:  Is the HIV II what is commonly referred to as the HIV virus?

        A:  There are three variants that have been discovered so far
that I'm aware of, I, II, and III.  This number II is very similar to the
SIV, in all probability indicating that HIV II is a man-made virus.

        Q:  Is this assuming that HIV is, you know, we hear about it
mutating.  In other words, is HIV II the main cause of AIDS, one of the
causes of AIDS, or is it unclear?

        A:  It is one of the variants of the virus that has been reported
to be causing AIDS in Africa.

        Q:  Hi.  It seems that people infected with the Nazi ideology...

        A:  That's a good way of putting it.  Go ahead...

        Q:  ...that they would find it irresistible, the temptation to
fool around with genetic engineering.

        A:  Well, Mengela was doing that at Auschwitz.  We know he was
doing experiments with genes, with twins and so forth to examine the
genetic factors.  Absolutely.

        Q:  Do you know of any further research or any clues of what they
might be doing in that area?

        A:  Well, I see the whole situation AIDS against that
background.  That is why I began the discussion with the historical
connections of the United States to things like Unit 731, the Gehlen
organization, plus we've had that in our own country for quite some
time.  It should be noted that the idea of genetics, and this is
something that I probably should have brought up in the lecture proper
and I'm glad you brought this up, the whole idea of genetics and genetic
research is inextricably linked with the concept of eugenics, which in
turn is very closely connected with the mental hygiene movement.  The
mental hygiene movement and the eugenics movement have led to
euthanasia.  The euthanasia programs in Nazi Germany were the programs
that paved the way for the extermination programs that followed later.
I've done a miscellaneous Archive show about that.  Genetic engineering I
think also figures into the concept of eugenics in a big, big way.  If
you can make a super race then you might do that.  [unclear] Du Pont, for
example, who was an avid supporter of Adolph Hitler advocated in the
1920s creating using eugenics to create a race of super men which would
have tremendous intellects, which would be as physically fit as Marines.
So it is a concept that has gone on for some time.  It certainly would
prove irresistible.

        Q:  It seems like it's the other side of the coin, their
fascination with defective genetic groups.  The other side of that is a
fascination with super qualified or endowed.

        A:  One of the things that should be borne in mind with the issue
of genetic engineering is that the military always gets any technology
first.  They advance it secretly well beyond what the civilian population
is aware of.  Now in 1985, okay, six plus years ago, there was an article
which was published in many newspapers, I remember specifically the New
York Times, of the results of a genetic engineering experiment.
        What they did was they took a gene from a firefly.  They were
able to splice it into a tobacco plant.  What they got was a tobacco leaf
that glowed like a firefly and they showed it.  Now the implications of
that are absolutely enormous.  That is a gene introduced, taken from one
phylum and placed into another phylum, a whole other category of
organisms, and it produced the same physical characteristic in the other
phylum that it did in the first.
        You start thinking about what they might be doing with, you know,
taking genes from Apes and putting them into people, or lizards or
salamanders.  Who knows what they might be doing?  Among the many
thoughts that I've had about these periodic sightings of things like Big
Foot or there was supposed to be some sort of lizard man or alligator man
down in some place in Georgia or Florida.
        Now a lot of that, no doubt, is being generated by the local
chamber of commerce.  They get the word out in Tent Flap, Arkansas that
there is a lizard man running around.  Basically, all the hockey pucks
from fifty miles around are going to come in.  The local country store is
going to sell a lot of beer and a lot of ammunition and a lot of
sandwiches.  Not only the local chambers of commerce are responsible to a
certain extent for that, but I wouldn't entirely discount that we may be
seeing the results at some point of the genes from one type of animal
introduced into people, and then producing something like that.
        I am going to be doing a lecture in the months to come about
so-called UFOs, which are very real and don't come from outer space.  The
only thing that comes from outer space are the people who think they come
from outer space.  I'm going to be talking about those as devices for
social control.  They have a very real physical history.
        It began with German experimentation toward the closing days of
the war.  Two circular flying objects used by the Germans as
anti-aircraft weapons, one called the Fireball and the other called Ball
Lightening, were recorded as a matter of history to have been used.  The
organization that developed them was a German aeronautical research
facility called Fluwkfuwnkforshunkshunstalter Oberfafenhafen, a typically
compact German name, as I've said.
        But when you think about the possibilities, okay, suppose the
ozone layer goes, suppose the economy collapses, suppose the Green House
effect takes place, suppose the polar ice caps begin to melt.  Right now
in the southern most parts of South America, people are going blind from
the ozone layer.  They are being blinded by the hole in the ozone layer.
Think about all these things worsening.  There is talk of global warming
melting the polar ice caps to the point where coastal cities become
completely inundated.  If this happens, you won't see the Forty-Niners
playing at Candlestick Park.  The only thing that will be playing at
Candlestick Park are the sea hawks and the dolphins.
        Now, you think about the possibilities there and those are really
terrifying.  Think about what people will be willing to do if they want
to combine say genetic engineering with UFOs.  Suppose they take a gene
from a salamander or a lizard or something and figure out how to
introduce that into a human being. edical records or anything?

        A:  There probably would be.  I don't know what kinds of records
were kept.  And of course Wolfe Szmuness died of cancer in 1983, so he
isn't around to tell us.  I should think that would be relatively easy to
check.  But again, I would read the book AIDS and the Doctors of Death by
Alan Cantwell, which goes into it at greater
length.

        Q:  The other question I have is are you advocating, or did I
misinterpret your saying that people should not be tested for AIDS?

        A:  No, I'm not advocating that.  But I have thoughts about the
ambiguity of having somebody stick a needle in you.  They could be giving
you AIDS or if they want to make life miserable and damned near
impossible they can tell you you have HIV, which first of all is going to
really, really demoralize people and undermine them psychologically.

        Q:  Why would a doctor, your personal doctor, do that to you?

        A:  Well, I'm not saying a personal doctor, but at a clinic, if
you are someone, say a political activist or a member of an ethnic or
racial group that the government does not like, and the authorities in
command now do not like certain groups, this would be one way of
undermining you, even if you didn't have the virus.  You would have a
tough time getting insurance.  You would have a tough time getting
employment.  It would eat on you psychologically.  Your spouse might
divorce you.  It could have a tremendous effect, even if you didn't have
it.  And then if they decided to give it to you, that could have an even
more tremendous effect.  No, I don't advocate not getting tested.  But at
the same time it might be a good idea to get yourself tested under
another name rather than your own.  That is what I would recommend.

        Q:  Your talk about the genetic [engineering], it triggered a
memory of an article in the Chronicle.  I think it was a couple of years
ago.  [It] was about combining humans with apes genetically and making a
slave race.  It even went into the all the ramifications of well, what if
your daughter wanted to date one of these guys, the whole thing.  It
really made an impression on me.

        A:  I've known a few of those myself.

        Q:  Well, it really made an impression on me and I wonder.  That
was a while back and they were talking about that very seriously.

        A:  In fact, that's true.  That's a good point.  The Vatican even
was ruling that they thought that was immoral.  This has tremendous
economic implications.  The idea is that if you could cross-breed say a
man and an ape, you could get something that wouldn't technically be
human, therefore, wouldn't have any human rights.  One of the things to
think about is that this could then be used to perform manual labor.  It
would put a lot of people out of work and perhaps into liquidation
centers, as I've indicated, or "decontamination centers."

        Q:  Frightening.




 Brian Francis Redman    [e-mail]    "The Big C"
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    Coming to you from Illinois -- "The Land of Skolnick"
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